MUSLIM WOMEN AND ISLAMIC FAMILY STRUCTURE

[DQ]

It again shows your ardent beleif that you can spot flaws in every thing, which may be smoked screen you are looking through.



Quality control in processes and haphazardly written software is onething and spritual discourse is another, a pity that you have worn the glasses of consumerism (thats driving the world) and trying to analyze everything through it.



As for me being thought from childhood, this is your age old arguement, which from time and again I have explained clearly. For one,there is nothing wrong in something "if right" being imbibed from childhood it adds to perfection. On the contrary, my interest in relegion developed from my late teens, I have taken the time off to read about other world religions and practices, and I beleive its a constant study that one needs to do.



If you ever have noticed I have always tried to probe other relegions, none even on these boards have attempted to respond to queries about their beleifes and practices through examples or scriptures. The only thing I get is the concept of evolution, which from time and agian has been proved farce.

[CtrlAltDel]

It again shows your ardent beleif that you can spot flaws in every thing, which may be smoked screen you are looking through.

Quality control in processes and haphazardly written software is onething and spritual discourse is another, a pity that you have worn the glasses of consumerism (thats driving the world) and trying to analyze everything through it.

i am a realist, not an idealist. there is nothing in this world that has no flaws, let alone ancient laws.

spirituality and religion are matters of faith - u believe something is 200% right. faith doesnt mean it is actually 200% right. faith is good, but should not be to such an extent that the mind is closed for any other possibilities.

For one,there is nothing wrong in something "if right" being imbibed from childhood it adds to perfection.

yes...thats why children have to have a education of values. but IMO, teaching something as the absolute truth and closing the mind for further questioning is unfair to the child.

On the contrary, my interest in relegion developed from my late teens, I have taken the time off to read about other world religions and practices, and I beleive its a constant study that one needs to do.

i happy to hear that but u need to do it keeping an open mind that there could be truth in 'others' too...if u think i am not keeping an open mind, lemme tell u that i have picked up a small knwledge of quran from friends and i know there are many positive aspects that are over looked by others. but at the same time i also see flaws that the ordinary adherants do not see. i also study hindu scritpures that way and dont shy away from spotting flaws.

If you ever have noticed I have always tried to probe other relegions, none even on these boards have attempted to respond to queries about their beleifes and practices through examples or scriptures.

yr 'probes' were more like trying to prove that islam is superior, so they were not actually probing. maybe it seemed that way to u. to most of your questions abt social evils like casteism and sati for example, HP and I have given the explanation of how and why it turned out that way. read them again.

The only thing I get is the concept of evolution, which from time and agian has been proved farce.

evolution is a living reality mate...wake up and accept it!

[DQ]

Yea something that is 5000 yrs old maybe flawed accept it and bring about a change there.



On Sati, Casteism, Dowry nothing came from scriptures or beleifs, it was all self concoted presumptions. Thats the truth accept it.

[CtrlAltDel]

Yea something that is 5000 yrs old maybe flawed accept it and bring about a change there.

it takes balls, guts and self confidence to accept faults and try to change...

On Sati, Casteism, Dowry nothing came from scriptures or beleifs, it was all self concoted presumptions. Thats the truth accept it.

yes...thats the truth...show me one hindu scripture that promotes sati, dowri or oppression of people in name of castes...if something is 5000+ years old, it does change over time - for better or worse. its changing right now too...

[DQ]

So what I gather is the 5000 + old scriptures do not promote the Vices of Today? So much for Evolution.



So this sets a precedent for an argument that deviating from the path of scriptures in the name of evolution results in vices becoming rampant ?

[CtrlAltDel]

So what I gather is the 5000 + old scriptures do not promote the Vices of Today? So much for Evolution.

So this sets a precedent for an argument that deviating from the path of scriptures in the name of evolution results in vices becoming rampant ?

distorting original teachings to suit ones own need is a very human nature. we are humans we do make mistakes. but distortion need not be bad always - it can be for the good too. blindly sticking to old teachings refusing to see its negative aspects will definitely create problems...



to illustrate my point, let me tell u a familiar story with a twist:



a cap seller was walking thru a garden with a basket of caps. he decided to rest under a tree for a nap. when he woke up he discovered that the monkeys on the tree had stolen his caps and were wearing them. he tried his best but cudnt get the monkeys to throw the caps down. he had an idea. he took the cap out of his head and threw it on the ground. the monkeys imitated him and threw all the caps down too. he grabbed all the caps and went away laughing.



now kahani mein twist:



generations later, a descendent of the same cap seller was walking by the same park with a basket of caps and decided to rest under the same tree. again, when he woke up he saw that the monkeys had stolen his caps. he remembered his ancestor's teachings and threw his own cap to the ground. to his surprise the monkeys did not respond.



he was stunned and wondered aloud "wtf? my ancestor fooled the monkeys the same way but these monkeys dont seem to get fooled"



to that, one monkey replied, "do you think u are the only one with ancestors? our ancestor adviced us not to get fooled by this trick as he was."



2 morals in this tale:



1) do not assume that ancient ideas are still relevant to the present times

2) do not assume that the world around you hasnt changed from the times of your ansectors.



hope u get my point

[Whiz]

This was an interesting discussion, well anything about religion or politics always captivates me. Not the topics themselves but discussions.



Unfortunately these are the least discussed topics, instead we tend to worry more about cricket or movies.



Times change, and so should everything accordingly. These scriptures written a million years ago, when those 'learnt' folks were absolutely certain that the earth was flat, standing on pillars and that there are the heavens above the skies and hell under the earth. Isn't is appropriate for us to pause and question the teachings, the motives, the reasonings of these religions. Everyone of them.



Come on, compare the size of our brain to the vastness of the universe. Even the visible universe that is billions of light years wide. Do you think, this chicken-sh*t brain of ours is enough to comprehend the absolute truth. That too when our ideas are based on the pre-historic preachings. As long as we don't question something that is just stated, especially when stated without any proof whatsoever. Unless we keep those who keep saying these accountable, there is no way we are going to move forward. Knowledge is what that moves us ahead, learn new things, understand mysteries. And thus help us improve ourselves.



Since this is about Islam and the role of women, let me stick to just these topics. On one hand the religion states that nothing happens without the absolute approval of God. Which means that whatever we do happens, decided beforehand and we are just performers of a pre-written script. Which leads to justifying any action, even the f*cking US or the BJP.



Narrowing to the scope of women's rights in the religion. A guy can have four wives (with terms and conditions attached) while there is no such provision for a woman. As far as I know (and read from the papers) the woman can be divorced by the guy with utmost ease while the woman has no such rights. Why go into all those, quoting what was already said, the differences in the requirements between a man's and a woman's attire itself shows what the rights available for woman are.



May be, Islam did a lot in the 17th and the 18th centuries to provide so many provisions for women. And if true, the religious practices of those times should be commended. I respect them whole heartedly. But if that is the case, then shouldn't the religion be promoting women's rights with the same amount of enthusiasm. When and where did it stop. Or is the religion still promoting women's rights everywhere.



Only women, by nature, can give birth. That is their advantage when compared to men. Apart from that, there is no biological difference that prevents women from being professionals, sportspersons, 'opinionated-in-forums' or any other job. Granted that an average man is stronger compared to an average woman, but that need not mean that every woman should be stationed in the kitchen. For that matter, why shouldn't man be 'protected and put in a golden cage' by a much stronger man, or an older man, or multiple men at the same time.



What we need at this time, or at any time, is not religion telling us how to live our lives. Religion should stick to its name, tell how to worship God and no other sh*t. How to treat women, how to put nail polish without paiting outside your nails, how to decide whether to keep Sourav Ganguly in the team or not, how to fart and not get caught us none of religion's business. Any religion.



To decide how to treat women needs common sense. Not a book or writings on a wall. All people have feelings, experience pain and pleasure, have wishes and desires, have DNA and a brain. Just like you, be it a man or a woman. Anything that applies to you, applies to them unless there is a biological reason. Which means science not religion.



Footnote: I am a (non-practicing) Hindu while my fiancee is a Muslim.

[CtrlAltDel]

...Unfortunately these are the least discussed topics, instead we tend to worry more about cricket or movies....

:lol: u r right! but these topics have ended up with censorship and bans in the past...

the rest of yr post is similar to what i feel on this topic, except for a small thing:

...As far as I know (and read from the papers) the woman can be divorced by the guy with utmost ease while the woman has no such rights...

i have been told that a muslim woman can divorce her husband (a procedure called "khula" or "khufa" i dont remember), but it comes with some conditions attached and is also not encouraged in many societies.

...and also this:

...the differences in the requirements between a man's and a woman's attire itself shows what the rights available for woman are...

on this my research tells me that muslim men dont exactly have a free hand in clothes..."modest dress" is prescribed for both sexes, with an extra covering of head for women. its another matter what is actually followed in reality

[Mayavi Morpheus]

Just digging old topic and didn't want to start a new one. When DQ questioned womens rights in Hinduism I asked him what rights meant for him. Read his posts in this thread and you will have an answer.

Now the reason I digged this thread is because I was reading some other infor and I found the following:

Muslim - SR. 100,000/-

ii. Christian/Jew - SR.50,000/-

iii. Other religions : such as Hindu, Buddhist, Jain, etc. - SR 6666.66

In the case of death of a female, death compensation allowed is equal to half the amount as admissible to males professing the same religion.

The above is in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. When a person is accidentally killed by another, then Blood Money has to be paid to the kin of the victim. How much money has to be paid is decided by the islamic governmetnt after consultations with sharia and it turns out that a Muslim woman is worth half that of a Muslim man. A Hindu is worht only 1/15th of that of a Muslims man and so on...

In Iran, the laws are a bit liberal... a dead hindu gets slightly more money than what he would have got in Saudi. Also this money is not fixed and there will be a price chart published every month which decides how much money has to be paid if a person dies in that particular month. It is kind of variable market rate you see for APR on ur credit.