MUSLIM WOMEN AND ISLAMIC FAMILY STRUCTURE

[DQ]

Let me try to comprehend what you have penned. Let not dwell into the arguement as to what relegion is and what it is meant to do. We can have that at a later stage or on a different thread all to gether.



First let me begin by explaining what Nativist and Tribal is.



Nativist -

Political - Nativism is a hostile and defensive reaction to the flux of immigration.

Psychological - In psychology, nativism is the view that certain skills or abilities are 'native' or hard wired into the brain at birth.



Tribal - Tribal refers to a culture or society based on tribes or clans. Tribalist as an attitude emphasizes ethnic identity or pride in a cultural sense, as opposed to folkish ideologies focused on race.



Next, did you anywhere in this thread read anyone suggest that "the only way to protect a woman is to put her in a chaddor"

For heavens sake we are talking about Womans rights, and if you feel that womans rights can be discussed by only discussing what she wears then lets dwell into it a bit further.



So you are opinated about the "Chaddor", You feel chaddor is not a form of protection of womans right and would have been an appropriate practice during the 6th century.

and by this you are trying to imply that in the modern age Women are respected, and this 6th century practice should be shunned.

Let me highlight a few examples of the modern age, before replying try to place a Woman whom you respect into each of these scenarios.



Think of a Woman - Mum-Sis-Daughter-Wife, think of her name, now in each of the below places replace Woman - by that name.



Woman in a Bar.

Woman in a topless Bar.-

Woman in a night club.-

Woman in a Brothel. -

Woman in your Office (Whom at times you and your colleagues talk about.).

Woman in Public transport (who is being pushed and nudged).

Woman in the Shopping center. Keep going....



21st century my friend, where rights, respect and equality rule the roost. We surely have moved from 6th to the 21st century. The Free Woman or Shall I say the Free Exploited Woman.



Now to CAD.

thats was pretty regressive DQ! u are clearly implying that this "so called equality" u are talking abt has only resulted in exploiting the women sexually....thats typical of mindset of people who prevent women from working or going out alone coz they dont want others to 'stare' at them or 'talk' to them. this they do in the guise of 'protecting the women-folk'.

before u jump the gun to accuse me of tarnishing a certain religion, let me tell u that the above feeling is present in many men of all religions. i have a Reddy friend who openly said tht he wants to marry a plain looking woman coz he fears others wud 'look' at her. what you are expressing is not very dissimilar.

Yes CAD, the major explotation has been Sexual. As above please place a Woman you respect in one of the above places and reply.



Regressive No, Fact Yes.



Look around you CAD. In the name of equality and freedom where are we moving. Lets talk numbers.



For every educated girl comming out of uni, there are 10 others somewhere around the world ending up at corners of streets.



For every professional job a woman takes up, there are 10 other who end up being abused.



Most of the industries, most of the individuals I speak to : for them the Woman is no more a Human being who needs to be respected. Its all about how she would look nude ? How can she be exploited.



Read the following, will help explain how a girl is viewed these days.



"The girls that are available to us and this industry are much prettier than they were in the past...I think they're less concerned about taking their clothes off. In the early days women were very concerned about taking their clothes off publicly. But today it seems so much more natural. Somehow there's much less resistance. A lot of the girls are more interested in doing it because they believe it can be helpful to their career in show business...there's so much benefit in controversy today where there wasn't before."



"Unlike most guys, when I see a pretty girl the thing that I immediately think of is not how she looks to me, but how she would look to my readership. In other words, what is her centerfold potential?"



As for your Reddy friend, I am sure he is looking for a Girl who can get half a million in katnam and put up with his Chauvnism and sick mentality. Why did you look at him ? Why did you speak to him? etc etc.



And to the other point of locking up a Woman. Heavens sake who proposes that, a Woman has every right to attain knowledge and make a career, until and unless her rights and morals are not being compromised.



I can show you a million examples in India alone where a woman is forced to work due to family pressures. The husbands, in-laws force women to work. Sexual, financial lets keep them going what more exploitation do you want.



This is not what Islam preaches. The Family structure.



A man has to pay the Woman Dower.

A man has to provide for the family.

Cooking,cleaning and maintianing the house is the mans responsibility.

The woman has to take care of the upbringing of the children alone.

A man has to provide for every legitmate desire the woman must have.



A Woman enjoys the position of a precious Gem in the Muslim family. The more precious the more protected, and the Gem is not given the status of a mere ornament but that of a human beign, who has all the rights she wishes. Ask any Girl what she would prefer, Protection and Care or Lewdness and Nudity ?

[lonewolf]

As for your Reddy friend, I am sure he is looking for a Girl who can get half a million in katnam

One million = 10 lakhs. What is he, a 7th class failed guy?

[DQ]

Oh they have started giving half a million $$ to 7th fail is it?

[lonewolf]

Oh they have started giving half a million $$ to 7th fail is it?

I thought you were talking about half a million rupees



But I won't be surprised if they give half a million dollars to a 7th failed guy. I've seen equally worthless guys get almost as much in dowry.

[DQ]

True true. WORTHLESS. Its worthless to give even a Rupee to the one accepting Dowry. Theres no deserving or Undeserving here. Saale mardangi ke naam pe dhaba. Anyway, another day on an existing thread.

[CtrlAltDel]

Now to CAD.

good! i thot what u said above was directed at me and was confused

Yes CAD, the major explotation has been Sexual. As above please place a Woman you respect in one of the above places and reply...
.
.
.
A Woman enjoys the position of a precious Gem in the Muslim family. The more precious the more protected, and the Gem is not given the status of a mere ornament but that of a human beign, who has all the rights she wishes. Ask any Girl what she would prefer, Protection and Care or Lewdness and Nudity ?

i agree that exploitation of women is very much there...but have u noticed why the exploitation takes place and why women make themselves available for exploitation...? the basic cause is lack of education n poverty. no one gets exploited willingly and its also not because of lack of "protection" at home. how to tackle this problem is not the topic here.



its rare for a girl with good education and opportunity for career growth to throw it all over for exploitative professions. rememebr that education gives anyone, girl or boy, lot of mental strength and maturity.



the 'protection' you are talking about sounds more like the proverbial 'Golden Cage'. women do not need that much stifling over-protection. it is bad to assume that women without such a protection can be easily exploited.



...and remember thali ek haath se nai bajthi...to avoid exploitation of weak women, it is necessary to offer similar protection to men's morals...afterall men can be weaker than women atleast where thots and actions are considered.

[betty]

I have to barge in here, as a working women, as a sis-daughter-wife-girlfriend....

Think of a Woman - Mum-Sis-Daughter-Wife, think of her name, now in each of the below places replace Woman - by that name.

Woman in a Bar.
Woman in a topless Bar.-
Woman in a night club.-
Woman in a Brothel. -
Woman in your Office (Whom at times you and your colleagues talk about.).
Woman in Public transport (who is being pushed and nudged).
Woman in the Shopping center. Keep going....

21st century my friend, where rights, respect and equality rule the roost. We surely have moved from 6th to the 21st century. The Free Woman or Shall I say the Free Exploited Woman.

For every position that you mentioned, lets imagine a man at the same place:
Man in a Bar.
Man in a topless gay Bar.-
Man in a night club.-
Man in a Brothel or as a gigolo. -
Man in your Office (Whom at times you and your colleagues talk about.).
Man in Public transport (who is being pushed and nudged).
Man in the Shopping center.

Now, does the list seem any different? Are these positions more respectable/less lewd/less exploited?
If a man working in a office is not being exploited, why should a woman be? If a man can have a great time in a pub or a night club, why can't a woman have the same?
How is the respect given to a man and a woman different?
If a woman can feel sexually exploited because some lech touches her in a bus, a man can feel the same. When anyone travels in public, they have to be ready to protect themselves, and most of us woman, have managed to do that pretty well, thank you. We do not need campaigners like you who want to lock us at home to ensure exploitation by less people. Note, it is 'less', not 'no' people, becuase even at home exploitation takes place, and it is true of both men and women.

Lets talk numbers.

For every educated girl comming out of uni, there are 10 others somewhere around the world ending up at corners of streets.

For every professional job a woman takes up, there are 10 other who end up being abused.

I am very confused here, what are you trying to say? I won't even try to interpret this as I always go wrong with the interpretation, so I'll leave it to you.
To me, all this sentences seem misplaced and jsut put to increase the length of your post.

Most of the industries, most of the individuals I speak to : for them the Woman is no more a Human being who needs to be respected. Its all about how she would look nude ? How can she be exploited.

You mean, before women came to work, men never thought how a woman would look nude? That's funny. And here I was thinking that that was natural for all men to do, irrespective of time, becuase mutual attraction is always necessary for reproduction?

Read the following, will help explain how a girl is viewed these days.

"The girls that are available to us and this industry are much prettier than they were in the past.................
.............
"Unlike most guys, when I see a pretty girl the thing that I immediately think of is not how she looks to me, but how she would look to my readership. In other words, what is her centerfold potential?"

The excerpt was most probably made by a person about girls in show business, mainly models...and he is absolutely correct, what's wrong with that? An editor of a fashion magazine will always need to know how his magazine will sell. And again, I'll re-iterate here that he must be thinking the same about guys...becuase even guys need to be hot and handsome so that we girls give that magazine a second glance.

I can show you a million examples in India alone where a woman is forced to work due to family pressures. The husbands, in-laws force women to work. Sexual, financial lets keep them going what more exploitation do you want.

And I can show you another 2 million examples, where a fully qualified woman is forced to remain at home ue to family pressures. The husbands, in-laws force women to stay at home and work at home. Sexual, financial lets keep them going what more exploitation do you want.

This is not what Islam preaches. The Family structure.

A man has to pay the Woman Dower.
A man has to provide for the family.
Cooking,cleaning and maintianing the house is the mans responsibility.
The woman has to take care of the upbringing of the children alone.
A man has to provide for every legitmate desire the woman must have.

How many muslim men have you seen who cook, clean and maintain the house?

Also this type of job division is all very silly. If the woman needs to jsut take care of the children, then women need not study further, becuase she cannot put that to any use. My grandma was educated till class 8th maybe, but she knew very well how to bring up my mom.
So, if you are trying to say that
a) islam says woman jsut need to take care of babies and
b) this is very progressive,
I'd say bullshit. It is never progressive to say that certain members of the society should remain uneducated.
And so a woman should not be an engineer, doctorate, lawyer, etc. because that would mean her just wasting one seat in the college which could have been taken by a man who can utilize that education.

A Woman enjoys the position of a precious Gem in the Muslim family. The more precious the more protected, and the Gem is not given the status of a mere ornament but that of a human beign, who has all the rights she wishes.

Your words are contradictory and laughable.
How can you say that the woman can enjoy all the rights when all the rights you are ready to give her is that of a baby-sitter and nanny? What if the woman says she does not want to bring up the kids but want to earn a living? Will you agree to that as per Islam? Your own statements indicate that you will say 'No'.

Ask any Girl what she would prefer, Protection and Care or Lewdness and Nudity ?

As you have wanted to ask the question to a girl, let me take that up:

I need protection and care, just like a man does, as much as a man does. Come to think of it, if you ask a man who has been sweating to earn money to support his family whether he would like to stay at home and let someone give hima certain sum of money at the end of each month so that all his needs and luxuries are taken care of, what will that man say?

As for lewdness and nudity, if you are suggesting that working means lewdness and nudity, you are living in the dinosaur's age. Either you change your mindset or become extinct, because when you have a mindset like that, I am sure you must be viewing all women who work as someone who is undergoing sexual exploitation.:lol :lol

[CtrlAltDel]

Your words are contradictory and laughable.

:lol:



that, my dear, is the essence of being DQ!

[DQ]

All your assumptions are based on your final few statements. You have automatically assumed that Islam does not permit a Woman to attain education or work.



As a matter of fact Islam promotes Womens eduction when it says "The best university of a child is a mothers lap."



When Europe and most part of the World were going through the Dark ages.



Islam was the relegion promoting Womans rights and Education, please read through history before you come forth with your birdie stuff.



As far as baby sitting is concerned, YES. Islam promotes a Social Atmosphere and promotes that Kids are bought up by the Lady of the House. A condition that can be discussed before marriage by any Girl, and if she does not agree she may not marry the man. How many other relegions promote this? HUH.



Huh as far as your other ravings are concerned will reply only after you are able to gulp this. Because if you cannot accept this and want to follow a line of self concoted perceptions, there is no point driving the points through.

[CtrlAltDel]

As a matter of fact Islam promotes Womens eduction when it says "The best university of a child is a mothers lap."

:lol:

pray, in what way does that line u quoted promote women's education? at least make your quotations appropriate!

As far as baby sitting is concerned, YES. Islam promotes a Social Atmosphere and promotes that Kids are bought up by the Lady of the House. A condition that can be discussed before marriage by any Girl, and if she does not agree she may not marry the man. How many other relegions promote this? HUH.

since the islamic family structure u quoted allots only child rearing task to the woman, isnt the woman being unislamic when she refuses to do that? who would marry her?
moreover getting all the education qualifications possible to end up rearing children is a waste. what is the point of all that education and rights?
first answer betty's points before dismissing her post as a rave.

Huh as far as your other ravings are concerned will reply only after you are able to gulp this. Because if you cannot accept this and want to follow a line of self concoted perceptions, there is no point driving the points through.

she raised all valid points for whcih u have no reply. and she based it all on what you wrote. if you cannot accept others countering your argument with valid points, u have no business debating.



whatever points others make u call it a rave and you speak only gospel truth...

[betty]

You have automatically assumed that Islam does not permit a Woman to attain education or work. .

Well, being a woman in a software company (and whom according to Islam is presently being sexually exploited by colleagues and family), I never ever 'automatically assume' things. I 'logically' draw 'conclusions' based on what you wrote about Islam. So, either you extract that statement or I'll further conclude that you 'automatically assumed' that I, being a woman, cannot draw logical conclusions.

As a matter of fact Islam promotes Womens eduction when it says "The best university of a child is a mothers lap." .

This saying might mean one of these:
1) No child needs to go to school because he/she learns best from his/her mother. So, down with schoold, colleges and universities.

or else

2) A child needs to sit on mother's lap when gaining education ...but then the mom has to go to school with the child

or else

3) There must be books hidden or something written in the folds of clothing on a mother's lap

please read through history before you come forth with your birdie stuff..

'Birdie stuff'? Now what exactly do you mean by that?
Right now, my entire knowledge of islam is based on what you wrote about it, so please resort to history to support your statements. If you can write something here, I'll take it up from there.

Islam promotes a Social Atmosphere and promotes that Kids are bought up by the Lady of the House. A condition that can be discussed before marriage by any Girl, and if she does not agree she may not marry the man. How many other relegions promote this? HUH..

No other religion needs to promote that DQ, becuase no other religion says that the kids have to be brought up by only the lady of the house.
In short, whatever you are so proud of in Islam, I find it extremely derogatory to women.

Huh as far as your other ravings are concerned will reply only after you are able to gulp this. .

I breezed through it DQ *yawn* You wrote nothing except a few useless lines to increase your post count and length of the post.



Come on, at least give me an honest fight

[san]

one cool betty

[mark]

my 2c



in every religion you will have a spectrum of opinion, from ultra-conservative to radically progressive.. It is unfair to expect DQ to defend his religion, as his stance is only one of many different positions it is possible to take without being un-Islamic. DQ (correct me if I'm wrong) is a moderately conservative Indian Muslim, yet you are all (including DQ) making sweeping statements about the world’s second largest religion. There are 1,999,999,999 Muslims out there who are not DQ, and I’m sure many of them would not agree with many of his stances. In fact many might find Betty's (excellent) argument a very valid one.



anyway, Islam usually comes off very badly on these boards, mainly due to the quality of the debaters (no offense DQ but you are incapable of a logical argument) rather than the quality of the religion.

[CtrlAltDel]

i agree with mark's assessment of DQ...he doesnt try to make things clear, but persists in quoting various provisions and amendments in Quran and expects the rest to agree with his opinions, just coz he says so.



if he feels Quran presents the most valid and "natural" way of life, he is entitled to believe so, but it definitely doesnt mean that non-muslims have to agree with him. if we question some of the things he says or quotes, he takes offence and calls us "communal" or "racist". this is no way to debate.



this is also why i take great delight in provoking him...its soooo easy

[DQ]

I have to barge in here, as a working women, as a sis-daughter-wife-girlfriend....

Think of a Woman - Mum-Sis-Daughter-Wife, think of her name, now in each of the below places replace Woman - by that name.

Woman in a Bar.
Woman in a topless Bar.-
Woman in a night club.-
Woman in a Brothel. -
Woman in your Office (Whom at times you and your colleagues talk about.).
Woman in Public transport (who is being pushed and nudged).
Woman in the Shopping center. Keep going....

21st century my friend, where rights, respect and equality rule the roost. We surely have moved from 6th to the 21st century. The Free Woman or Shall I say the Free Exploited Woman.

For every position that you mentioned, lets imagine a man at the same place:
.....
.....
.....
Now, does the list seem any different? Are these positions more respectable/less lewd/less exploited?

So you do agree that this is exploitation (just want to confirm if we concur ? Before you start a cynicall thread of progressivity and acceptability).

If a man working in a office is not being exploited, why should a woman be?

By this do you mean Woman are being exploited?

If a man can have a great time in a pub or a night club, why can't a woman have the same?

Be it man or woman if they feel they are having a great time they certainly should have.
(Just a query to all progressive minded people, most of the night clubs allow a ratio of two to three females per male. Why is this. Its a free and equal world, every body should have the same type of great time )

How is the respect given to a man and a woman different?

You tell me, its your query. Or is it Bettys Assumption no 1 ?

If a woman can feel sexually exploited because some lech touches her in a bus, a man can feel the same. When anyone travels in public, they have to be ready to protect themselves, and most of us woman, have managed to do that pretty well, thank you.

Let me correct you here, I think you wanted to tell "ALL of US WOMEN" have mastered at doing that pretty well. (My assumption, correct me if I am wrong.).

When you say "Most" do you have the stastics? What accounts for Mosts.
Have ever read UNs report on atrocities on women?
Walk into your local police station, gather stats of.
1. Dowry Deaths
2. Rape Incidents.
3. Eve teasing.
..............or do you prefer to see the globe through your own crystallized mirror?

We do not need campaigners like you who want to lock us at home to ensure exploitation by less people. Note, it is 'less', not 'no' people, becuase even at home exploitation takes place, and it is true of both men and women.

Bettys assumption no (ah well whatever) Campaigners like you:lock us up. Really.
Read Post 1 of this thread.


Although the woman is permitted to work outside of the house, Islam sees her primary role as the nurturer and first teacher of her children. It is through the mother that the children are brought up and taught the morals and values of righteous living. However, if a woman decides to work, then whatever money she earns is entirely hers and she is not required to contribute any of it to the maintenance of the family.[/quote]

And about exploitation, exploitation occurs where Natural Rights and Rescpect is not accorded where it is due. And Islam has strived to protect this. Simple.

I can show you a million examples in India alone where a woman is forced to work due to family pressures. The husbands, in-laws force women to work. Sexual, financial lets keep them going what more exploitation do you want.

And I can show you another 2 million examples, where a fully qualified woman is forced to remain at home ue to family pressures. The husbands, in-laws force women to stay at home and work at home. Sexual, financial lets keep them going what more exploitation do you want.

And thats what Islam is attempting to protect. Again read Post 1 of this thread.

Islam sees a woman - whether single or married - as an individual in herself with the right to own and dispose of her property and earnings as she pleases. At the time of marriage, the groom gives a marriage dowry to the bride for her own personal use, and she keeps her family maiden name rather than changing it to her husband's last name.

How many muslim men have you seen who cook, clean and maintain the house?

So you have not seen any? Or do we go ahead with the Bettys assumption count...

Also this type of job division is all very silly. If the woman needs to jsut take care of the children, then women need not study further, becuase she cannot put that to any use. My grandma was educated till class 8th maybe, but she knew very well how to bring up my mom.
So, if you are trying to say that
a) islam says woman jsut need to take care of babies and
b) this is very progressive,
I'd say bullshit. It is never progressive to say that certain members of the society should remain uneducated.
And so a woman should not be an engineer, doctorate, lawyer, etc. because that would mean her just wasting one seat in the college which could have been taken by a man who can utilize that education.

I leave it to the brighter ones on these forums to decipher and explain.

A Woman enjoys the position of a precious Gem in the Muslim family. The more precious the more protected, and the Gem is not given the status of a mere ornament but that of a human beign, who has all the rights she wishes.

Your words are contradictory and laughable.
How can you say that the woman can enjoy all the rights when all the rights you are ready to give her is that of a baby-sitter and nanny? What if the woman says she does not want to bring up the kids but want to earn a living? Will you agree to that as per Islam? Your own statements indicate that you will say 'No'.

So this is the thought process you have based your entire argument on?
Again I beg you read Post 1 of this thread.

Ask any Girl what she would prefer, Protection and Care or Lewdness and Nudity ?

As you have wanted to ask the question to a girl, let me take that up:
I need protection and care, just like a man does, as much as a man does. Come to think of it, if you ask a man who has been sweating to earn money to support his family whether he would like to stay at home and let someone give hima certain sum of money at the end of each month so that all his needs and luxuries are taken care of, what will that man say?
As for lewdness and nudity, if you are suggesting that working means lewdness and nudity, you are living in the dinosaur's age. Either you change your mindset or become extinct, because when you have a mindset like that, I am sure you must be viewing all women who work as someone who is undergoing sexual exploitation.:lol :lol[/quote]

Bettys assumption no....my god. Where does it reflect that I am talking about working women ?

Walk into your local Newsagent and look at the Magazine section.


Bettys theory of Software Professionals, states

Well, being a woman in a software company (and whom according to Islam is presently being sexually exploited by colleagues and family), I never ever 'automatically assume' things. I 'logically' draw 'conclusions' based on what you wrote about Islam. So, either you extract that statement or I'll further conclude that you 'automatically assumed' that I, being a woman, cannot draw logical conclusions.

Just because she claims not to assume things I will now start looking at these assumptions as theories (drawn through no stats, facts or logical deduction).

please read through history before you come forth with your birdie stuff..

'Birdie stuff'? Now what exactly do you mean by that?

The crap that you have been splurting around. Couldn't think of a better way.

Right now, my entire knowledge of islam is based on what you wrote about it, so please resort to history to support your statements. If you can write something here, I'll take it up from there.

Yea and all your above statements show how you would like to attain your knowledge. Instead of bothring to read through and comprehend you would prefer to assume oops theorise and crap all over.

Islam promotes a Social Atmosphere and promotes that Kids are bought up by the Lady of the House. A condition that can be discussed before marriage by any Girl, and if she does not agree she may not marry the man. How many other relegions promote this? HUH..

No other religion needs to promote that DQ, becuase no other religion says that the kids have to be brought up by only the lady of the house.
In short, whatever you are so proud of in Islam, I find it extremely derogatory to women.

Again if you read Post 1. All quotes of the Sacred thread are addressed to the beleiving Men and Beleiving Women. Well your not reading it is a different thing. But your assumption of it being derogatory is one.

Huh as far as your other ravings are concerned will reply only after you are able to gulp this. .

I breezed through it DQ *yawn* You wrote nothing except a few useless lines to increase your post count and length of the post.

That proves why all of it is crap....breeze. HUH. As far as increase count lenghth etc etc it is Bettys theory no?

Come on, at least give me an honest fight

[/quote]

Fight? You? Why? Where? Whenever....

my 2c

in every religion you will have a spectrum of opinion, from ultra-conservative to radically progressive.. It is unfair to expect DQ to defend his religion, as his stance is only one of many different positions it is possible to take without being un-Islamic. DQ (correct me if I'm wrong) is a moderately conservative Indian Muslim, yet you are all (including DQ) making sweeping statements about the world’s second largest religion. There are 1,999,999,999 Muslims out there who are not DQ, and I’m sure many of them would not agree with many of his stances. In fact many might find Betty's (excellent) argument a very valid one.

anyway, Islam usually comes off very badly on these boards, mainly due to the quality of the debaters (no offense DQ but you are incapable of a logical argument) rather than the quality of the religion.

Well I do agree to what you say Mark.
Neither do I claim to be a theoligan nor a Prophet who can guide people through.
Well why do I take intrest then, it gives me an insight on how narrow minded the globe is, how generlised peoples views are on certain topics.

i agree with mark's assessment of DQ...he doesnt try to make things clear, but persists in quoting various provisions and amendments in Quran and expects the rest to agree with his opinions, just coz he says so.

if he feels Quran presents the most valid and "natural" way of life, he is entitled to believe so, but it definitely doesnt mean that non-muslims have to agree with him. if we question some of the things he says or quotes, he takes offence and calls us "communal" or "racist". this is no way to debate.

this is also why i take great delight in provoking him...its soooo easy

Never Have I persuaded any one to beleive in what I beleive. I guess I have the right to share my "POV" and refute allegations.

Well I have never taken offence to quite a many grossities that many of you have swept away with. If taking offence and slurring was my objective, I could slander and slush and walk away from these boards. HUH.

[betty]

God, I thought I'll find a mind-stimulating mail from DQ ona Monday morning....instead I find him writing nonsense...*yawn*...what a loser!!!!



Will get back on your few statements...you have hardly written anything except for quoting me... but then that's your old habit...



Till my reply post comes through, I suggest you study exglish a bit...you seem to be having trouble understanding simple statements as per your comments:

betty wrote:

If a man working in a office is not being exploited, why should a woman be?

DQ wrote:

By this do you mean Woman are being exploited?

[CtrlAltDel]

betty wrote:
If a man working in a office is not being exploited, why should a woman be?

DQ wrote:
By this do you mean Woman are being exploited?

:lol: what nonsense... as mark says, DQ just cant present any logical argument!

[CtrlAltDel]

oh...and i forgot:



HUH

[betty]

my 2c

in every religion you will have a spectrum of opinion, from ultra-conservative to radically progressive.. .

Very true.

you are all (including DQ) making sweeping statements about the world’s second largest religion.

I'll speak for myself - I am not making any statement about Islam, frankly, because I don't know anything about it. However, this thread (correct me if I am wrong) is about 2 things: Islam and women's rights and I do understand a lot about the latter.



So, when someone who has some or a lot of knowledge about the former (Islam) tried to automatically decide the latter (women's rights), I wished to disagree on some points.



Just making my stand clear

[DQ]

God, I thought I'll find a mind-stimulating mail from DQ ona Monday morning....instead I find him writing nonsense...*yawn*...what a loser!!!!

Will get back on your few statements...you have hardly written anything except for quoting me... but then that's your old habit...

Till my reply post comes through, I suggest you study exglish a bit...you seem to be having trouble understanding simple statements as per your comments:

betty wrote:

If a man working in a office is not being exploited, why should a woman be?

DQ wrote:

By this do you mean Woman are being exploited?

Kya Huwa CAD / Betty.....Still searching. Just by going ung oh ...loser doesn't mean you have won. 2 weeks should have been time enough.

[DQ]

No back to where we left our discussion.



Lets look a bit into History first.



Look at any of the ancient civilisations to the Europe of the 1800s, to the developing nations of today.



We see instances of the female being buried alive to today where she is aborted before birth. The paraya dhan.



In that age Islam came up with the right frame work to protect the rights of women. In those ages when women were pledged into marriage even before they were born.



In pre-Islamic days (and the developing world of today. Practices of some of the evolvers of today) the Arabs, as well as non-Arabs, considered fathers to have full authority over their daughters, their sisters and in certain cases even over their mothers, and, in the choice of husbands for them, they did not believe that these women should make their own decisions and having a choice in the matter. It was the sole authority and function of the father or brother, or, if there was no father or brother, of their uncle, to give them in marriage to whomever they liked.







This right was practiced to such an extent that fathers assumed for themselves this right in respect of a girl still unborn, and, when she had been born and brought up, the man to whom she had been married had the right to take the girl away for himself.



Islam did the greatest service to the female sex, and not only by depriving fathers of their absolute authority. It gave complete freedom; it gave individuality, an independence of thought and opinion, and formally acknowledged their natural rights. However, the steps that Islam took in connection with the rights of women are, without doubt, basically different in two ways from what is going on in the west and among those who imitate the west.







Firstly, in the area of the psychologies of man and woman, Islam has accomplished a miracle



The second difference is that despite the fact that Islam acquainted woman with her human rights, gave her individuality, freedom and independence, it never induced her to revolt and mutiny against, or be cynical towards the male sex.



The Islamic women’s movement was a “white’’ movement untinged with black, red, blue or purple. Daughters’ respect for their fathers, and wives’ respect for their husbands was not done away with. The foundations of family life were not wrecked. It did not make women despise having husbands, being mothers and bringing up children. Islam did not provide the means for social gatherings where bachelors and women-chasers go to hunt out their victims free of cost. Islam did not allow wives to leave the sides of their husbands, and daughters the benevolent protection of their father, and mothers, to be handed over to men of title and wealthy persons. It did nothing to cause one of weeping and wailing to rise to the heavens crying ‘Oh woe, the sacred law of the family has been shattered, reliance on the father has disappeared; in the midst of all this generation, what can we do?’ What can we do when there is so much infanticide and abortion? When there are forty illegitimate births in every hundred? Illegitimate children with unknown fathers, whose mothers, since they did not give birth to them in the loving home of a father, have no strong feelings towards them, and them over to a social organization and then never inquire further about them.

[CtrlAltDel]

Firstly, in the area of the psychologies of man and woman, Islam has accomplished a miracle

how? what?



abt the rest of the post...well...doesnt it sound like the proverbial 'Golden Cage'..."do what ever u want, as long as u do it my way". even if those rights exist on paper, show me where they are practiced? u talked a lot abt marriage...show me in how many muslim girls are free to choose her own partner and her family approves...no raging father or brother going to bash/kill the suitor and/or the girl.



2 years ago, a kuwati arab girl fell in love with her indian driver (a muslim too). since in the islamic laws her country function, this is illegal, she had to run away to india (a town in AP, to be exact) to marry him. a bounty was placed on her head in kuwait and the kuwaiti govt presurized the indian govt to deport her since she was a fugitive as per islamic law. of corz many 'secular' parties tried to get the govt to deport her, but many human rights groups and NGOs prevalied and she is still in india, but cannot dare visit her homeland.



what freedom did she have? a muslim friend of mine ran away to north india for safety after she decided to marry her boyfriend (also a muslim). she is still there and is scared of coming back here.



why do men react this way if the girls have complete religious freedom? i know there is some more freedom in Quran esp compared to Old Testament or many other religions, but still the girl is not fully independent to make her own decisions.



the whole thinks smacks of a feeling that girls are not as good as men and need to be restricted in many ways while throwing some crumbs here n there to satisfy them.



looks like u are misinterpreting the texts and quoting out of context



i know u will say its a lie n propoganda, baja etc, but look around u and tell me if what i said is wrong...

[lonewolf]

2 years ago, a kuwati arab girl fell in love with her indian driver (a muslim too). since in the islamic laws her country function, this is illegal, she had to run away to india (a town in AP, to be exact) to marry him. a bounty was placed on her head in kuwait and the kuwaiti govt presurized the indian govt to deport her since she was a fugitive as per islamic law. of corz many 'secular' parties tried to get the govt to deport her, but many human rights groups and NGOs prevalied and she is still in india, but cannot dare visit her homeland.

All this happens one-way - most of the time its an Arab guy marrying a westerner, but if the reverse happens, you get death threats or direct bloodshed.



In August, an American Steven Vincent was killed because he dated an Iraqi; it was supposed to be an honour killing. It works only one-way. Half my Arab friends have American or European mothers, but Arab fathers, never the other way round. Also, many of my male Arab friends have American girlfriends or wives, but my female Arab friends won't dream of dating anyone not of Arab/Muslim descent.

[DQ]

So say its your perception of what you have seen and experienced.



Show me where they are practised?



Well the 4 incidents that you have experienced and read in papers does not mean that billion other people are doing the same Thats what I mean of your perception and probaly global perception.



Appears that you will continue to base your arguements on perception and personal experiences. Which you very well have the right to do so and every body else on the globe.

What they should not do is based on perceptions and practices of a few they should not aim to swashbuck an entire community its practices etc....



I would prefer that you read and comprehend and comment on the text rather then continue to rant about a few incidents that are promoted by the media and your own experiences.



This thread is an attempt to interpret scriptures to portray Womens rights in Islam and the family structure described in Islam. To an accepting mind this should be a read and insight on the various aspects of Life Islam covers as opposed to the general beleif held. I will refrain from responding to rants on this thread.

[CtrlAltDel]

This thread is an attempt to interpret scriptures to portray Womens rights in Islam and the family structure described in Islam. To an accepting mind this should be a read and insight on the various aspects of Life Islam covers as opposed to the general beleif held. I will refrain from responding to rants on this thread.

i have no quarrel with what qoran says...but i feel offended at your implication that what qoran says is absolutely right and natural for all humans. thats is just your perception. if you had not implied anything that way, you wud not feel offended if someone gives a counter arguement. its not your fault actually...u have been taught that way from childhood.



as a professional quality control person, i know for definite that one can spot loopholes and flaws only with an objective view. it is obvious that you believe in the 'flawlessness' of qoran, but this also means u cannot accept any arguement that something somewhere can be flawed too. i am trained to analyze everything objectively...from a distance. i try to spot flaws not only in qoran, but also texts of all religions and any non-religious issue.



i dont assume anything is 100% correct because others say so. u cannot do that, so any debate with you on this topic is futile.