Dr. Zakir Naik and Sri Ravi Shankar

[Spiritual HP]

The bloke is going to talk at Public Gardens on Sunday. Wish I could go and engage him in a debate. But I have prior commitments.

[CtrlAltDel]

damn! i wish i cud have gone n listened to what exactly he has to say! did they advertise this event in newspapers?

[First Fugitive]

Well...Guys gone through all your postings and its clear that u guys attained a great length debating on the religious issue.....I have some Logical questions Please try to Post Logical answers

1.How can a cow be God?

2.How can a Stone be God? [idols]

3.How can a Monkey be God? [Hanuman]

4.How can a Lion be God? [Narsimha]

5.How can a Father beheads his son being a god [Lord Shankar beheads his son Ganesha by a sword and later when godess Parvathi says him that he is his son then he cuts off an elephants head and pastes it on his son's body]



My question is Being a God how Shankar doesnt know that Ganesha was his son?????



6.If SriRam was god why cant he fly to lanka and free sita,it took several years for Sriram to Reach Lanka and Sri Ravana Flew away with Sita in a moment?



7.If Hanuman [ the Monkey God] can enlarge his size and fly carrying the whole mountain just for a plant[sanjivni] for laxman why cant he take Sriram directly to lanka...perhaps if Hanuman was a god why did he forgot the plant's name [Sanjivni]...



8.Why Lord Krishna was Stealing Makkhan[Cream] in his childhood and in his teens by hiding the clothes and staring at poor maids while they were taking bath...was he a god by Birth or became god later after a certain age??

[Mayavi Morpheus]

Can I also ask some questiong about Islam? Please please please

[Nyx!]

damn! i wish i cud have gone n listened to what exactly he has to say! did they advertise this event in newspapers?

I have never seen it being advertised anywhere except for QTV... and i think he just debates on the differences rather than similarities among the different religions... so don't waste ur time CAD... v all have better things to do ...

[Nyx!]

Can I also ask some questiong about Islam? Please please please

Go ahead MM .. that wud b interesting .. but i hate discussing such things ... i feel when i don't know my religion properly and thoroughly i m in no way a fit to discuss other religions ... or comment on them... peaceful...

[CtrlAltDel]

1.How can a cow be God?

cow is not a 'God'. it is respected and considered like a 'mother' (Gomaata) coz we drink its milk.

2.How can a Stone be God? [idols]

the Stone/Idol is not god...it just represents a mnaifestation of god. just like yr photo is not u, but only represents you. dont u respect the picture of yr parents, tho its not yr parent?

3.How can a Monkey be God? [Hanuman]
4.How can a Lion be God? [Narsimha]

that are instances of Gods in form of animals. hindusim considers gods to be residing in every thing - living or non-living. it also represents respect of nature and equality of all god's creations.

5.How can a Father beheads his son being a god [Lord Shankar beheads his son Ganesha by a sword and later when godess Parvathi says him that he is his son then he cuts off an elephants head and pastes it on his son's body]

My question is Being a God how Shankar doesnt know that Ganesha was his son?????

6.If SriRam was god why cant he fly to lanka and free sita,it took several years for Sriram to Reach Lanka and Sri Ravana Flew away with Sita in a moment?

7.If Hanuman [ the Monkey God] can enlarge his size and fly carrying the whole mountain just for a plant[sanjivni] for laxman why cant he take Sriram directly to lanka...perhaps if Hanuman was a god why did he forgot the plant's name [Sanjivni]...

8.Why Lord Krishna was Stealing Makkhan[Cream] in his childhood and in his teens by hiding the clothes and staring at poor maids while they were taking bath...was he a god by Birth or became god later after a certain age??

good questions! long ago i put them to many ppl too. and the answer i got was that hindusim does not consider god(s) infallible. they have their weaknesses too and they invariably pay for it. there are also many devotional hymns/songs where the singer questions and scolds gods. abt Ram and Krishna, tho they were considered incarnations of God, they are primarily humans who discovered their divinity in stages, esp Ram. Krishna was said to have knowledge of his divinity in childhood itself. he was also a prankster and a playboy who had 100s of girl friends btw, having girlfriends/flirting is not a sin in hinduism.

[CtrlAltDel]

...but i hate discussing such things ... i feel when i don't know my religion properly and thoroughly i m in no way a fit to discuss other religions ... or comment on them... peaceful...

lite yaar! i feel there's no problem questioning/discussing each other's religions provided it doesnt get offensive. who knows, u too might get some knowledge of yr own religion! i am personally not religious, but i like to study and know abt religions.

[Nyx!]

...but i hate discussing such things ... i feel when i don't know my religion properly and thoroughly i m in no way a fit to discuss other religions ... or comment on them... peaceful...

lite yaar! i feel there's no problem questioning/discussing each other's religions provided it doesnt get offensive. who knows, u too might get some knowledge of yr own religion! i am personally not religious, but i like to study and know abt religions.

Yep u r right ... there's no harm in discussing.. u might learn a lot ... liked the way u answered those questions ...

[Mayavi Morpheus]

Go ahead MM .. that wud b interesting .. but i hate discussing such things ... i feel when i don't know my religion properly and thoroughly i m in no way a fit to discuss other religions ... or comment on them... peaceful...

Discussing religion is not wrong and you dont have to be an expert in your religion before you question others. But there is a difference between asking questions out of curiosity and out of conceit and it is very apparent here.



When you ask questions abt a particular religion out of curiosity, you will have an open mind to understand the philosophy of that particular religion. Do you see such open mindedness in any of these people here? Those who worship idols do not know why they do so and those who dont, do not know why either and there is no point trying to explain to either one why. The minds are shut and you do not see anything beyong what your book says.



Now this fella asked why did krishna hide the clothes of maids when they were bathing. I could give a lengthy reply explaining the wonderful message embedded in that story and gives the essence of hindu philosophy - the relation between god and man. Would he understand? I bet my bottom dollar that he will not be willing to understand. Why? Because, he never read the actual story and he only read about the part where krishna was lusting for women and stole their clothes so as to see them naked.



The way the story goes is that krishna hides the clothes of woman bathing in a lake and when they want them to be returned, he asks them to come out of the lake with both hands up in the air as a namaste, praying to the lord. The woman raise one hand up in air and cover their body with the other to which krishna says, your mind is not on the prayer but on your own body. The woman eventually come out naked and when they do that, their mind was completely focussed on the lord and they are not worried anymore that they are naked. It does not matter whether you are clothed or not infront of god for you are his creation! This is the essence of the story, complete focus on the lord and not material things. This is the essence of hindu philosophy.



So the question is not why krishna saw them naked, the question is can you see beyond materialistic things, beyond these bodily desires and can you focus on god?

[Nyx!]

Go ahead MM .. that wud b interesting .. but i hate discussing such things ... i feel when i don't know my religion properly and thoroughly i m in no way a fit to discuss other religions ... or comment on them... peaceful...

Discussing religion is not wrong and you dont have to be an expert in your religion before you question others. But there is a difference between asking questions out of curiosity and out of conceit and it is very apparent here.

When you ask questions abt a particular religion out of curiosity, you will have an open mind to understand the philosophy of that particular religion. Do you see such open mindedness in any of these people here? Those who worship idols do not know why they do so and those who dont, do not know why either and there is no point trying to explain to either one why. The minds are shut and you do not see anything beyong what your book says.

Now this fella asked why did krishna hide the clothes of maids when they were bathing. I could give a lengthy reply explaining the wonderful message embedded in that story and gives the essence of hindu philosophy - the relation between god and man. Would he understand? I bet my bottom dollar that he will not be willing to understand. Why? Because, he never read the actual story and he only read about the part where krishna was lusting for women and stole their clothes so as to see them naked.

The way the story goes is that krishna hides the clothes of woman bathing in a lake and when they want them to be returned, he asks them to come out of the lake with both hands up in the air as a namaste, praying to the lord. The woman raise one hand up in air and cover their body with the other to which krishna says, your mind is not on the prayer but on your own body. The woman eventually come out naked and when they do that, their mind was completely focussed on the lord and they are not worried anymore that they are naked. It does not matter whether you are clothed or not infront of god for you are his creation! This is the essence of the story, complete focus on the lord and not material things. This is the essence of hindu philosophy.

So the question is not why krishna saw them naked, the question is can you see beyond materialistic things, beyond these bodily desires and can you focus on god?

Very true.. asking questions is not wrong.. but doing so with a malicious intent is. But u have really put forth a good explanation.. i never knew the logic behind the story myself....

[roomygiggly]

Sir,

Sir Fujitive has asked so many questions..



I want to draw the attention of sir Fujitive ...has he or she noticed how a child is taught writing? they first teach them standing lines, sleeping lines, slant lines etc...there are so many methods in learning as our mind, and intellect is not exactly same. In a class why different students get different marks even though the teacher who teaches all the students in that class at a particular time is same and discussing same subject at that time? If we are able to see what is happening around us, if we are able to assimilate what is going on around us, if we are able to differentiate and relate what is happening around us, then only then we will know what is this so called " religion" means. Else we like those four or five blind men talking about elephant will go on and on talking about it.



Kindly understand, there is nothing wrong in talking about it...like those blind men...

[b]BUT WE NEED TO RELATE, BE READY TO COMPARE, COMBINE ETC THE INFORMATION THAT WE GET, SEE IF IT STANDS TO LOGIC AND REASONING..







then - only then we accept that.



but even to look at reasoning and logic, one need to have the capability to dis-cover the ignorance. one need to have the courage for that.



and a real Hindu will not have to hold on to a book and say that " it is said in this book ...so this is it." we will find many who talk like that...and case is same with all religious propagandists.. that is because they are not interested in the welfare of the people, they are not helping those who give a patient listening to them in making them grow, but they are interested in " propaganda" increasing their number of followers..



the beauty of HINDUISM is that this is totally free in thinking..you are free to think in any way you wish to, act in any way you wish to ..u need not believe in GOD, or in anything u do not like to believe

because, it is your decision to be that way..

but then you should have the courage and capability to accept the result of your action...because it was an action you performed consciously...you decided to use your free will and acted.



our normal attitude is to blame others for our actions...we are late to reach office or school, blame the bus, traffic, wife, husband, children...etc..

the blame game goes on and it results in feelings of hurt and guilt..



one who is a student of VEDANTA, starts seeing the fallacies and starts overcoming these feelings of hurt and guilt

THAT IS GROWTH

GROWING IN TO MATURITY



RELIGION WHEN UNDERSTOOD PROPERLY IS MEANT FOR MAKING OUR THIS LIFE A BETTER ONE

A STRESS FREE, ENJOYABLE, HAPPY ONE...



and by the way...



NO ONE, NO ONE BUT " I " CAN MAKE MY LIFE A HAPPY ONE



and that understanding of " I " is what VEDANTA communicates ..



it is up to us to either try to learn or discard...

but learning process is not short



to learn physics, chemistry, maths etc, we have spent years and years...and do we think that learning of "I" can be done in a minute?



and learning VEDANTA need not be religious...one need not convert onself to HINDUISM to learn this ..one can still continue to be what one is by birth and still study...



once one study this, ones attitude changes...not to GOD, but to onself, to everything around ...



then one will respect, both the living and non living things in and around us...near and not near us.



Even Dr Zakir may benefit a lot- in teaching a better ISLAM to the people who listen to him regularly, if only he tries to study the meanings of the scriptures what he quotes...BUT THAT NEEDS DEFENITELY A TEACHER ..

QUOTING SOMETHING ON THE BASIS OF SOME MEANING READ IN THE BOOK IS NOT GOING TO HELP HIM OR ANY ONE FOR THAT MATTER....



do ask questions, without any hesitation...and if you are not satisfied with reply, go on enquiring about that, until u are satisfied..

just because i reply some rubbish, u need not stop your enquiry..

because..it is your growth that matters...

{ use "I" where i wrote "u"}



let us all grow to maturity by uncovering the ignorance...

[CtrlAltDel]

well put roomy!



the problem is not in people believing in different things. the problem starts only when some people start believing that their opinions are the right one and the rest are wrong!

[roomygiggly]

Well...Guys gone through all your postings and its clear that u guys attained a great length debating on the religious issue.....I have some Logical questions Please try to Post Logical answers
1.How can a cow be God?
2.How can a Stone be God? [idols]
3.How can a Monkey be God? [Hanuman]
4.How can a Lion be God? [Narsimha]
5.How can a Father beheads his son being a god [Lord Shankar beheads his son Ganesha by a sword and later when godess Parvathi says him that he is his son then he cuts off an elephants head and pastes it on his son's body]

My question is Being a God how Shankar doesnt know that Ganesha was his son?????



6.If SriRam was god why cant he fly to lanka and free sita,it took several years for Sriram to Reach Lanka and Sri Ravana Flew away with Sita in a moment?

7.If Hanuman [ the Monkey God] can enlarge his size and fly carrying the whole mountain just for a plant[sanjivni] for laxman why cant he take Sriram directly to lanka...perhaps if Hanuman was a god why did he forgot the plant's name [Sanjivni]...

8.Why Lord Krishna was Stealing Makkhan[Cream] in his childhood and in his teens by hiding the clothes and staring at poor maids while they were taking bath...was he a god by Birth or became god later after a certain age??

Sir,

too many questions to answer.



before answering them i would like to ask one question. kindly do not get angry or upset on me for that. we are only trying to look at things from different perspective.



what is paper made of ??

what are the uses of paper ??



the answer will be paper is made of pulp which is a combination of fibres of wood etc...

the paper is used to write, print, thicker variety for making boxes, packaging, thinner variety for cleaning as tissues, toilet paper etc..



now the same material is used for different purposes - when it is in different forms.



what happens to printed books? u read it and may be keep it for some time and then if the pests do not consume it, u sell it at rs 2 per kg or exchange for some vessels etc...



now look at this..



how the paper which is basically same, used for writing, printing, toilet etc..get different treatment?

u respect the written or printed paper if that is of use to u. the moment the use is over, u throw away that...

your emotions attach different values to it.



some paper can even kill people...right?

some one in usa - let us say an idiot or mad fellow- did something with a book that is called a scripture and

see how many people got killed all over the world?



was it the paper that did the killing?

was it the scriptures did the killing?



.................................



you gave - remember - it is u who gave - certain value - for that paper...

and then some action of some one...you took it on yourslef...

you made yourself hurt ...because some one did something...



and then u decided to hurt someone who is around u...

remember - u are hurting yourself and some one around you.

u cannot do a thing to the person who did something with that...



now look at this again.....



if only you had spent a little time and thought...

if only you looked at your emotions...



tell us ..what happens to the old books that are printed...let it be scriptures..

what happens to them??

sure, in our houses, we wont have books which are older than 30 or 40 years old...may be 50 years???

what happend to all that - that was printed and that was at our homes before we were born and that our grand dad was using?/



IT IS OUR EMOTIONS THAT CONTROL US..



and emotions can never-repeat- never help us to take right action.



for us human beings, we need to remember always that the life is an important - most important thing- and we should only try to help live a person...not kill him - so that we can go to heaven...



think over these points...



and then we can go to the other points raised in this msg or sir fugitive..sure there are logical - debatable though- replies are available for the questions he/she has raised...only thing, the logic that we may use may be more acceptable than the other...since both are debatable....



LET US LEARN TO GROW TO MATURITY......instead of simply aging

[Tony]

An except from: Good Questions, Good Answers on Buddhism

By Venerable S. Dhammika



Question: Where do beings come from and where are they going?



Answer: There are three possible answers to this question. Those who believe in a god or gods usually claim that before an individual is created, he/she does not exist, then he/she comes into being through the will of a god. He/she lives their life and then, according to what they believe or do in their life, they either go to eternal heaven or hell. There are others, humanists and scientists, who claim that the individual comes into being at conception due to natural causes, lives and then at death, ceases to exist. Buddhism does not accept either of these explanations. The first gives rise to many ethical problems. If a good god really creates each of us, it is difficult to explain why so many people are born with the most dreadful deformities, or why so many children are miscarried just before birth or are still-born. Another problem with the theistic explanation is that it seems very unjust that a person should suffer eternal pain in hell for 60 or 70 years of non-belief or immoral living. Likewise, 60 or 70 years of good living seems a very small outlay for eternal bliss in heaven for what he/she did in those years on earth. The second explanation is better than the first and has more scientific evidence to support it but still leaves several important questions unanswered. How can a phenomenon so amazingly complex as consciousness develop from the simple meeting of two cells, the sperm and the egg? And now that parapsychology is a recognised branch of science, phenomena like telepathy are increasingly difficult to fit into the materialistic model of the mind.



Buddhism offers the most satisfactory explanation of where beings come from and where they are going. When we die, the mind, with all the tendencies, preferences, abilities and characteristics that have been developed and conditioned in this life, re-establishes itself in a fertilised egg. Thus the individual grows, is re-born and develops a personality conditioned both by the mental characteristics that have been carried over. And by the new environment, the personality will change and be modified by conscious effort; and conditioning factors like education, parental influence and society and once again at death, re-establishing itself in a new fertilised egg. This process of dying and being reborn will continue until the conditions that cause it, craving and ignorance, cease. When they do, instead of being reborn, the mind attains a state called Nirvana and this is the ultimate goal of Buddhism and the purpose of life.”



Further ...



“So the Buddhist teachings of rebirth do have some scientific evidence to support it. It is logically consistent and it goes a long way in answering questions what the theistic and the materialistic theories fail to. It is also very comforting. What can be worse than a theory of life that gives you no second chance, no opportunity to amend the mistakes you have made in this life and no time to further develop the skills and abilities you have nurtured in this life? But according to the Buddha, if you fail to attain Nirvana in this life, you will have the opportunity to try again next time. If you have made mistakes in this life, you will be able to correct yourself in the next life. You will truly be able to learn from your mistakes. Things you were unable to do or achieve in this life may well become possible in the next life. What a wonderful teaching!”



Note: Buddhism holds that mind is more fundamental than matter. Just as energy is neither created nor destroyed, the mind survives births and deaths. Samskaras (impressions) and karma (cause and effect) are intertwined. Buddhism uses the metaphor of seeds rooted deep in the subconscious, which manifest as certain tendencies over several life-times. Samskaras accumulate as a result of our reactions to external events, and in turn condition our responses, which tend to create the very circumstances that provoke the reactive volitions and emotions in the first place. This explains the cyclical nature of dukkha (unsatisfactory existence). When the mind is purified, it reverts to its true nature of Buddhahood, which is Nirvana (freedom from dukkha).

[Tony]

An additional insight, from the Theravada Buddhist monk Abhinyana, is that if you are reborn continually, the logical implication is that at some point you have been a member of every race, ethnicity, and land. That knowledge diminishes any feeling of nationalism, racism, or prejudice towards any category of “out-group,” including those who happen to follow a different religion.



It’s instructive to carefully examine the Abrahamic doctrine of creation and the meaning of eternity. Generally, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam assume that life begins at conception, and the latter two religions explicitly teach that the life of the soul continues forever after. In my view this is a mistake, because it relies on the same illogical idea of creation ex nihilo that typifies traditional monotheism – that something can come out of nothing. Naturally, the monotheist will reply that “God can do what he wants,” but beyond an absurd anthropomorphism, if they considered what this means for a brief moment, the would realize that they unwittingly worshipping a cosmic tyrant.



If the soul is truly eternal, it wouldn’t last forever in the stream of time in any static sense, for nothing in the stream of time is permanent (that is the nature of time). For something to be eternal, it must also be timeless. Nothing can be created without also having an ending. A soul does not come out of nothing and then continue on its way forever, for eternity does not have any beginning. The idea of an eternal soul means that there must be a pre-existence to earthly life, whether or not this means reincarnation, as much as an afterlife.



Problem with the doctrine of permanent hell.



The root of the word “discipline” comes from “disciple,” which means “to learn.” The purpose of punishment is to teach a person a lesson, namely, not to do something harmful again. Why would God test us in this life, only to send us to hell for an eternity after we die? How can a soul learn from that?



It seems to me that if God is omnipotent, God should already know who’s going to commit sin. If God already knows who is going to commit sin but then cause that soul to eternally suffer anyways, God must have created that soul for no other purpose than to torture it forever. If “He” has absolute power, as Islam asserts, then how incredibly cruel is it to create a soul, not give it credit for anything good it learns, since only God is the source of all good, but let then let it feel all the consequences of sin? How could you then offer the lame explanation that we have free will in this process? This isn’t just my interpretation; this is the opinion of the respected medieval thinker Al-Ashari, who founded the discipline of Islamic theology (qalam). The problem of theodicy won’t go away, and if Muslims claim that Islam is more rational than every other religion, they can’t avoid this issue.