Granting of dual citizenship to all POI's

[salamehyderabad]

Is granting of dual citizenship to the Persons of Indian Origin (POI) who migrated from India after January 26, 1950 to 20-25 countries across the globe a boom to the POI's justified .

Citizenship frequently carries with it legal obligations relating to taxes, military service, and/or travel restrictions. Dual citizenship allows the person to live in India indefinitely, unlike the Person of Indian Origin (PIO) card, which permitted a single stay for a period of six months. Dual citizens do not have voting rights. Neither can they be elected to public office. Is this a boom or a curse.

[3 T'z]

well evry thin has itz proz n conz...this included...^^

[Habitual Perfectionist]

This is another thing I carry strong views on. I feel that people who have left India and have taken up citizenships of other countries should not be given these special priveleges like NRI, PIO etc across the board. This can be done for people who are contributing to the country in fields like Education, Industry, Social reforms etc.



I've seen so many people who have scant regard for the country and they are generally the first ones to jump at such opportunities cuz. this provides them with a lot of sops that allow them to launder money to their relatives etc. or help them in other ways.

[DQ]

This is another thing I carry strong views on. I feel that people who have left India and have taken up citizenships of other countries should not be given these special priveleges like NRI, PIO etc across the board. This can be done for people who are contributing to the country in fields like Education, Industry, Social reforms etc.

I've seen so many people who have scant regard for the country and they are generally the first ones to jump at such opportunities cuz. this provides them with a lot of sops that allow them to launder money to their relatives etc. or help them in other ways.

Huh, the greatest contributors to the Indian economy have been the Diaspora.



Those people who left their loved ones to direct that much needed releif to India in terms of Foriegn Exchange. The Dollars and Rials that flowed in not only assisted India in terms of much needed wealth but also raised the socio economic condition of communities.



It is the same Diaspora that has contributed in diversion of back end processing towards India. It was high time India came up with dual citizenship that allows these to continue serving the country.



The dual citizenship will initiate a transfer of knowledge of its talented diaspora in addressing some basic issues like disaster mitigation, healthcare, drinking water, sanitation, and administrative, judicial and political reforms the most in need.

[Habitual Perfectionist]

This is another thing I carry strong views on. I feel that people who have left India and have taken up citizenships of other countries should not be given these special priveleges like NRI, PIO etc across the board. This can be done for people who are contributing to the country in fields like Education, Industry, Social reforms etc.

I've seen so many people who have scant regard for the country and they are generally the first ones to jump at such opportunities cuz. this provides them with a lot of sops that allow them to launder money to their relatives etc. or help them in other ways.

Huh, the greatest contributors to the Indian economy have been the Diaspora.

Those people who left their loved ones to direct that much needed releif to India in terms of Foriegn Exchange. The Dollars and Rials that flowed in not only assisted India in terms of much needed wealth but also raised the socio economic condition of communities.

It is the same Diaspora that has contributed in diversion of back end processing towards India. It was high time India came up with dual citizenship that allows these to continue serving the country.

The dual citizenship will initiate a transfer of knowledge of its talented diaspora in addressing some basic issues like disaster mitigation, healthcare, drinking water, sanitation, and administrative, judicial and political reforms the most in need.

I request you to read my post again.



I said that these priveleges should be provided to people on a selective basis - only to those who are contributing to the betterment of the country. No way should people who diss India be given these priveleges.



Example : Sucker Vidia Naipaul. He doesn't miss a single opportunity to talk ill about his land of origin. Neither has he contributed in any way to the betterment of the country. He has even insulted some of our constitutional institutions. Why should he be granted special status like PIO, dual citizenship etc.?

[DQ]

This is another thing I carry strong views on. I feel that people who have left India and have taken up citizenships of other countries should not be given these special priveleges like NRI, PIO etc across the board. This can be done for people who are contributing to the country in fields like Education, Industry, Social reforms etc.

I've seen so many people who have scant regard for the country and they are generally the first ones to jump at such opportunities cuz. this provides them with a lot of sops that allow them to launder money to their relatives etc. or help them in other ways.

Huh, the greatest contributors to the Indian economy have been the Diaspora.

Those people who left their loved ones to direct that much needed releif to India in terms of Foriegn Exchange. The Dollars and Rials that flowed in not only assisted India in terms of much needed wealth but also raised the socio economic condition of communities.

It is the same Diaspora that has contributed in diversion of back end processing towards India. It was high time India came up with dual citizenship that allows these to continue serving the country.

The dual citizenship will initiate a transfer of knowledge of its talented diaspora in addressing some basic issues like disaster mitigation, healthcare, drinking water, sanitation, and administrative, judicial and political reforms the most in need.

I request you to read my post again.

I said that these priveleges should be provided to people on a selective basis - only to those who are contributing to the betterment of the country. No way should people who diss India be given these priveleges.

Example : Sucker Vidia Naipaul. He doesn't miss a single opportunity to talk ill about his land of origin. Neither has he contributed in any way to the betterment of the country. He has even insulted some of our constitutional institutions. Why should he be granted special status like PIO, dual citizenship etc.?

Now how do we get selective ?



So you propose that India ridicules itself in front of the World.



"The Indian constitution permits Dual Citizenship, to all Indians who migrated from India after xxx date to xxx country, except Mr A and Mr B and all people Mr perfect does not consider legitimate."



Not that I support Naipual, but there are over a 100,000 of them within India. Do you have a solution for them?

[CtrlAltDel]

Dual Citizenship wud be given only to PIOs in those countries where its legal to have dual citizenship...



i think it wud make it easier for investment n money to flow in with easier regulations and less red tape. other than from an economic PoV, i dont see any benefit in this.



moreover i dont think we can be selective about which 'person' we can grant it to and to whom we deny, other than considering the laws of their country of domicile...

[Just Another Human]

That's right!



How do we get selective ???? DQ - u r completely rite when u said there are millions of people within our own India who don't even have minimum respect for our nation or for that matter, anything else. There is not even a single way how we can identify them.



The reason why we are talking abt Naipaul today is just because he is in the limelight and he went on air giving his opinions. But what about others ?



As far as I think, it's perfectly alrite to give 'Dual Citizenship' to PIO's but just that we need to make our laws strict rather than being lineant towards PIO's/NRI's considering the so-called 'foreign exchange' they are gonna bring or invest in our country.



It's better to be a underdeveloped country with minimum speculation rather than being a developed country with too many headaches. ;-k

[DQ]

That's right!

How do we get selective ???? DQ - u r completely rite when u said there are millions of people within our own India who don't even have minimum respect for our nation or for that matter, anything else. There is not even a single way how we can identify them.

The reason why we are talking abt Naipaul today is just because he is in the limelight and he went on air giving his opinions. But what about others ?

As far as I think, it's perfectly alrite to give 'Dual Citizenship' to PIO's but just that we need to make our laws strict rather than being lineant towards PIO's/NRI's considering the so-called 'foreign exchange' they are gonna bring or invest in our country.

It's better to be a underdeveloped country with minimum speculation rather than being a developed country with too many headaches. ;-k

All accepted except the headache part.



I think our progress and they way we are opening to the world is in lieu with the times.



As times change India has to change, the headaches that follow will get ground in the basic fabric of the nation. The only thing of concern in India is fanatism if this can be eradicated everything else like corruption etc can be controlled.

[Just Another Human]

That's right!

How do we get selective ???? DQ - u r completely rite when u said there are millions of people within our own India who don't even have minimum respect for our nation or for that matter, anything else. There is not even a single way how we can identify them.

The reason why we are talking abt Naipaul today is just because he is in the limelight and he went on air giving his opinions. But what about others ?

As far as I think, it's perfectly alrite to give 'Dual Citizenship' to PIO's but just that we need to make our laws strict rather than being lineant towards PIO's/NRI's considering the so-called 'foreign exchange' they are gonna bring or invest in our country.

It's better to be a underdeveloped country with minimum speculation rather than being a developed country with too many headaches. ;-k

All accepted except the headache part.

I think our progress and they way we are opening to the world is in lieu with the times.

As times change India has to change, the headaches that follow will get ground in the basic fabric of the nation. The only thing of concern in India is fanatism if this can be eradicated everything else like corruption etc can be controlled.

By headaches, what I meant was this! Most of the criminals get support from the people outside our country - say People who are already settled in Foreign countries. All of us know that if somebody is involved in a scandal in India, then he would just fly off to a foreign country and goes underground. Would he be able to do that if he doesn't get any support from people already staying there - this is where the rules have to be strict. That's all I said.



Many examples - Abu Salem, Dawood Ibrahim, Krishi Bank chairman (some Rao), Lakki Reddy Bal Reddy (The most filthiest Pig whom even pigs won't acknowledge as their sibling) - If anyone of u don't know abt this guy, he used to exploit poor kids sexually after taking them to the US in lure of money, Lakku Bhai Pathak - and a lot many.



My knowledge is limited on a lot of things DQ - (even though I am trying to expand it slowly) - as of now, this is what I think - Would be great if you can provide other insights.

[Habitual Perfectionist]

My point is again being misunderstood. I gave Naipaul as an example as everyone knows about him. There are so many others. My own aunt for example. Migrated to Canada in 84. Has been here thrice since then. And forget about the community or the country, she doesn't even have respect for her own family members. Considers herself superior as she earns more. What about such people?



They've taken a decision to leave the country and forget about it. When dual citizenship laws were not in place, they chose to forsake Indian citizenship and take up citizenship of the foreign country.



How can we be selective? Aren't we selective in everything we do? Are passports issued to everyone who applies for them? Does everyone who appears for an exam pass? Don't act so naive ppl. Its as simple as...



A person applies for dual citizenship.

He/She appears for an interview.

Based on why he/she wants the dual citizenship, he/she is granted/refused it.



In what way does that ridicule our country?

[DQ]

That's right!

How do we get selective ???? DQ - u r completely rite when u said there are millions of people within our own India who don't even have minimum respect for our nation or for that matter, anything else. There is not even a single way how we can identify them.

The reason why we are talking abt Naipaul today is just because he is in the limelight and he went on air giving his opinions. But what about others ?

As far as I think, it's perfectly alrite to give 'Dual Citizenship' to PIO's but just that we need to make our laws strict rather than being lineant towards PIO's/NRI's considering the so-called 'foreign exchange' they are gonna bring or invest in our country.

It's better to be a underdeveloped country with minimum speculation rather than being a developed country with too many headaches. ;-k

All accepted except the headache part.

I think our progress and they way we are opening to the world is in lieu with the times.

As times change India has to change, the headaches that follow will get ground in the basic fabric of the nation. The only thing of concern in India is fanatism if this can be eradicated everything else like corruption etc can be controlled.

By headaches, what I meant was this! Most of the criminals get support from the people outside our country - say People who are already settled in Foreign countries. All of us know that if somebody is involved in a scandal in India, then he would just fly off to a foreign country and goes underground. Would he be able to do that if he doesn't get any support from people already staying there - this is where the rules have to be strict. That's all I said.

Many examples - Abu Salem, Dawood Ibrahim, Krishi Bank chairman (some Rao), Lakki Reddy Bal Reddy (The most filthiest Pig whom even pigs won't acknowledge as their sibling) - If anyone of u don't know abt this guy, he used to exploit poor kids sexually after taking them to the US in lure of money, Lakku Bhai Pathak - and a lot many.

My knowledge is limited on a lot of things DQ - (even though I am trying to expand it slowly) - as of now, this is what I think - Would be great if you can provide other insights.

Your concern is valid dude.



- What I get is your concern about dealing with Criminals.



1. Even without the Dual citizenship status are they not managing to get away.

2. Dual citizenship would be a boon. For extradition if the person has naturalized in that country the logistics get complicated, but if he has retained his Indian passport, India is in a stronger position to get them extradiated.



e.g. Person A acquires Swiss nationality, now under international treatise India needs to get the person extradiated they need to follow the swiss legal process for swiss nationals. (Which again cannot be selective). Wether it be Indian born Swiss or Swiss as far as Swiss law is concerned he is a Swiss.



Now this person has Swiss as well as an Indian passport (read nationality, though not same but for eg.), if India has stron extraditaion ties with the country, that country can cancel the Swiss nationality and deport him to India where he can be tried under Indian law.



I know still not very clear.



3. With the 20 odd countries India is allowing POI/DUAL India has already established extradition treaties and reaching criminals there would be cakewalk for India, by this India is reducing the number of safe havens for these criminals.



4. Now the other concern is reaching these criminals, for that corruption has to be eliminated then every criminal will and can be bought to task.

[DQ]

My point is again being misunderstood. I gave Naipaul as an example as everyone knows about him. There are so many others. My own aunt for example. Migrated to Canada in 84. Has been here thrice since then. And forget about the community or the country, she doesn't even have respect for her own family members. Considers herself superior as she earns more. What about such people?

They've taken a decision to leave the country and forget about it. When dual citizenship laws were not in place, they chose to forsake Indian citizenship and take up citizenship of the foreign country.

How can we be selective? Aren't we selective in everything we do? Are passports issued to everyone who applies for them? Does everyone who appears for an exam pass? Don't act so naive ppl. Its as simple as...

A person applies for dual citizenship.
He/She appears for an interview.
Based on why he/she wants the dual citizenship, he/she is granted/refused it.

In what way does that ridicule our country?

Here again we are trying to mix a lot of things to prove ourselves.



- Your Aunties lack of respect (for those around her, the community, family) is grounds enough for her not to get dual citizen status (is this what you mean ?)



- What do you classify as lack of respect ?

Is it what you consider right (your social norms) and should be respected and she does not.



If so I will demand that all those who shows disrespect to respectable Indians who have been honoured in History (for e.g tagore, bose, nehru). To be unpatriotic and call for repealing their existing citizenship.





- I have seen that difference in attitude in second generation migrants who do not understand the Indian way of life, and ridicule the country. very few first generations do so. Even if they do following are the reasons I have comprehended.



a. Ridiculing acts of individuals or communities, every other person in the globe is guilty of doing that at some part or the other. If that is the case no one deserves any right world over.



b. The experience of anybody moving out of the country is pretty traumatic. It is very easy for us to sit in India and blame others for being to harsh or at times to melodramatic.



c. Snatching a child from its mother can be equated to some one migrating to a foreign land. These people (migrants) have at times risked everything in their life.

Then gone through every torment (from racial abuse to what not).

Led a life of Isolation.

Fought against everything and build a life around them, they return to their country with a lot of apprehension, (at times they have been supporting families with their hard earned money).

They return with the apprehension that times may have changed, expecting that individuals may have started respecting each other, expecting that they can get back into their roots and lead that proud life.



What they find.



At the Airport a Pan chewing custom officer who will not let them pass through until his / her palms are greased.

A coolie who runs away with their lugage.

From that good morning sir / good evening madam culture (beleive me 99 % of people in other countries are pleasent to each other) to a teri maaaki bhenki scruf. And mind you they are still not out off the Airport.

To the bumpy roads the funds of which are being consumed by a pot bellied official.

To the complains of relatives and friends (for not bringing gifts or not sponsoring XYZ or not supporting XYZ financially).

Curfews for a communal fight (in secular India)

And when they try to share their experiences on how we can change our life to help each one of us.



- They riduculed and branded

non desi

loose cultured

forgotten their grass roots.

Un Patriotic



All this by those Indians who have acclamatised themselves to live with corrupt officials, stinking politicians, Inadequate infrastructure.

All the above does not change by labelling Shining India etc, the ground realities remain the same.



Why can't these Indians who have moved out, call and charge the Indians staying in India for treason, for not fighting to eliminate the vices in society.

Atleast those who have moved out have fought for every $ dinar they have earned and helped people back home.



What has the Indian living at home fought for ?



Now the dual citizenship gives such people the oppurtunity identify them selves and excersie their right to dream of a better India for all. If there are a few criminals and anti socials getting away with this its lesser price to pay then the benefits that follow.

[Habitual Perfectionist]

If there are a few criminals and anti socials getting away with this its lesser price to pay then the benefits that follow.

This is where we differ.

I feel that its not as less a price as you think it is.

Your Aunties lack of respect (for those around her, the community, family) is grounds enough for her not to get dual citizen status (is this what you mean ?)

This again was another example. I'm trying to show you the various ways in which people are showing complete disrespect towards their roots. Do not take just one example to be my complete case.

Is it what you consider right (your social norms) and should be respected and she does not.

No...its not what I consider right or wrong. Its the ethos of the country that's being disrespected. And I guess everyone will agree that it should not. I'll make this clearer as my post goes further.

What they find.

At the Airport a Pan chewing custom officer who will not let them pass through until his / her palms are greased.
A coolie who runs away with their lugage.
From that good morning sir / good evening madam culture (beleive me 99 % of people in other countries are pleasent to each other) to a teri maaaki bhenki scruf. And mind you they are still not out off the Airport.
To the bumpy roads the funds of which are being consumed by a pot bellied official.
To the complains of relatives and friends (for not bringing gifts or not sponsoring XYZ or not supporting XYZ financially).
Curfews for a communal fight (in secular India)
And when they try to share their experiences on how we can change our life to help each one of us.

- They riduculed and branded
non desi
loose cultured
forgotten their grass roots.
Un Patriotic

Every country has its ills. But that doesn't give one the right to call a country good or bad. Indians can be bad, India cannot. These so-called diaspora come to India and crib every single minute about everything ill possible in India...and mind you...they would not have even gone through it personally - they've just heard it from a neighbour of theirs back in Blackpool, Houston, Sydney or Toronto. For them, India is an underdeveloped land of barbarians. How do the americans get all these false notions about India? Its only through these so-called "sons and daughters of the land" who spread their venom around.

These are the same ppl who ill-treat fellow Indians and suck up to the foreigners. Do you really think they have the country's interests at mind while applying for dual citizenship? Believe me, more than half of them would do it just to end up making a bundle of black money in both places.

If so I will demand that all those who shows disrespect to respectable Indians who have been honoured in History (for e.g tagore, bose, nehru). To be unpatriotic and call for repealing their existing citizenship.

The difference here is that I'm expressing my dislike for a person. Heck..its a free country and I'm entitled to my opinion. Just because I hate someone who you...or for that matter even the father of the nation...thinks is great, doesn't mean that I'm not a patriot.



Now, the ppl I'm talking about dislike this country. Why should the government bend over backwards for their help? Aren't our own people, our own industrialists, educationists, scientists, doctors and engineers good enough to take India further?



Yes...Indians staying abroad, who have the country's best interests at heart should get all benefits possible. But not the ones who don't.



And as I said earlier, this may not be made selective constitutionally, but it can very well be made selective at the execution level.

[DQ]

If there are a few criminals and anti socials getting away with this its lesser price to pay then the benefits that follow.

This is where we differ.

I feel that its not as less a price as you think it is.

It sure is Dude, For every Criminal that you speak about there around 300,000 odd people who have migrated or worked overseas to upift the Socio economic condition of the People around them.

Take the Example of Hyderabad, people who would have been living on Poverty or below poverty line. Struggling to make a living have moved to gulf and not only lifted their socio economic condition but have also assisted in educting those related to them.

Likewise the low middle income earners have migrated to US - Europe and changed not only their conditions but those around them. If the Govt of India would have restricted travel to rein in the criminals so many more lifes would have been effected.

Your Aunties lack of respect (for those around her, the community, family) is grounds enough for her not to get dual citizen status (is this what you mean ?)

This again was another example. I'm trying to show you the various ways in which people are showing complete disrespect towards their roots. Do not take just one example to be my complete case.

You still did not clarify in the example as to what you perceive as disrespect ?

Is it what you consider right (your social norms) and should be respected and she does not.

No...its not what I consider right or wrong. Its the ethos of the country that's being disrespected. And I guess everyone will agree that it should not. I'll make this clearer as my post goes further.

Again as in.

e.g Questioning the Red tapism
Questioning the Corruption
Questioning the Sanitation

What ?

What they find.

At the Airport a Pan chewing custom officer who will not let them pass through until his / her palms are greased.
A coolie who runs away with their lugage.
From that good morning sir / good evening madam culture (beleive me 99 % of people in other countries are pleasent to each other) to a teri maaaki bhenki scruf. And mind you they are still not out off the Airport.
To the bumpy roads the funds of which are being consumed by a pot bellied official.
To the complains of relatives and friends (for not bringing gifts or not sponsoring XYZ or not supporting XYZ financially).
Curfews for a communal fight (in secular India)
And when they try to share their experiences on how we can change our life to help each one of us.

- They riduculed and branded
non desi
loose cultured
forgotten their grass roots.
Un Patriotic

Every country has its ills. But that doesn't give one the right to call a country good or bad. Indians can be bad, India cannot. These so-called diaspora come to India and crib every single minute about everything ill possible in India...and mind you...they would not have even gone through it personally - they've just heard it from a neighbour of theirs back in Blackpool, Houston, Sydney or Toronto. For them, India is an underdeveloped land of barbarians. How do the americans get all these false notions about India? Its only through these so-called "sons and daughters of the land" who spread their venom around.

These are the same ppl who ill-treat fellow Indians and suck up to the foreigners. Do you really think they have the country's interests at mind while applying for dual citizenship? Believe me, more than half of them would do it just to end up making a bundle of black money in both places.

Do we consider this as your pres umptions or facts.

I have stated what the Diaspora go through in foreign land.
I racial taunt and you have noticed a thread come up and the comments on this very board. This Diaspora is living with that Day in and day out.

They cannot crib on Indians but yes do question the way of life.
The complete submission of the entire society to corruption / fanatism / ill hygiene....that is waht they question. It probably gives them a feeling of belonging. It probably hurts them when Media overseas portrays their brethern as third world living in appaling conditions.
They understand the root causes of this and wish those around them changed something.

If so I will demand that all those who shows disrespect to respectable Indians who have been honoured in History (for e.g tagore, bose, nehru). To be unpatriotic and call for repealing their existing citizenship.

The difference here is that I'm expressing my dislike for a person. Heck..its a free country and I'm entitled to my opinion. Just because I hate someone who you...or for that matter even the father of the nation...thinks is great, doesn't mean that I'm not a patriot.

Its free country sure, opinion is different and making derogatory statements is different.



The person who shaped the future of the country calls for respect and you call to denounce him, What should an Indian to, put up with it.



Now you very gleefully ignored the query.



"What has the Indian living in India fought for ?"

[Habitual Perfectionist]

It sure is Dude, For every Criminal that you speak about there around 300,000 odd people who have migrated or worked overseas to upift the Socio economic condition of the People around them.

Take the Example of Hyderabad, people who would have been living on Poverty or below poverty line. Struggling to make a living have moved to gulf and not only lifted their socio economic condition but have also assisted in educting those related to them.

Likewise the low middle income earners have migrated to US - Europe and changed not only their conditions but those around them. If the Govt of India would have restricted travel to rein in the criminals so many more lifes would have been effected.

If you've followed my posts on this thread carefully, you would have noticed that I'm not against dual-citizenship. I'm just against giving it to everyone across the board. Why should even one criminal or anti-social get it? Why can't we be selective has been my question which has been conveniently ignored.

You still did not clarify in the example as to what you perceive as disrespect ?

What I percieved as disrespect was the absolute hate for coming to India; constant statements like "Why are you spoiling your life and career here in this soddy country? Come to Canada and you can make such a better living for yourself. Its a wonderful country unlike India." etc. in my aunt's case. In Naipaul's case, its well known how he has ridiculed India not once, not twice but umpteen times.

Is it what you consider right (your social norms) and should be respected and she does not.

No...its not what I consider right or wrong. Its the ethos of the country that's being disrespected. And I guess everyone will agree that it should not. I'll make this clearer as my post goes further.

Again as in.

e.g Questioning the Red tapism
Questioning the Corruption
Questioning the Sanitation

What ?
[/quote]

I think I've already answered that. Its not that their heart aches for the ills pervading in the country and that they want to make things better; but a lack of a sense of belonging towards their motherland.

Do we consider this as your pres umptions or facts.

I have stated what the Diaspora go through in foreign land.
I racial taunt and you have noticed a thread come up and the comments on this very board. This Diaspora is living with that Day in and day out.

They cannot crib on Indians but yes do question the way of life.
The complete submission of the entire society to corruption / fanatism / ill hygiene....that is waht they question. It probably gives them a feeling of belonging. It probably hurts them when Media overseas portrays their brethern as third world living in appaling conditions.
They understand the root causes of this and wish those around them changed something.

Is this a matter of tit-for-tat where we're getting the "tat" for all the "tit" being meted out to them there? Are we responsible for the racial tendencies of caucasians and sheikhs? Why should we be the butt of the "diaspora's" frustration on the treatment they're getting there?

Again...the point here is not their complaining, but their cribbing about how bad a country India is. And this is not my presumption - its a fact experienced personally.

If so I will demand that all those who shows disrespect to respectable Indians who have been honoured in History (for e.g tagore, bose, nehru). To be unpatriotic and call for repealing their existing citizenship.

The difference here is that I'm expressing my dislike for a person. Heck..its a free country and I'm entitled to my opinion. Just because I hate someone who you...or for that matter even the father of the nation...thinks is great, doesn't mean that I'm not a patriot.

Its free country sure, opinion is different and making derogatory statements is different.

The person who shaped the future of the country calls for respect and you call to denounce him, What should an Indian to, put up with it.

Now you very gleefully ignored the query.

"What has the Indian living in India fought for ?"[/quote]



We are fighting it everyday DQ. But it's not something that'll be eradicated overnight. The voters are getting more intelligent day by day. People don't give in to corrupt officials that easily nowadays. The younger generation of politicians is closer to the grassroots and much more educated, informed and responsible, thus making them better for the job. If you still choose to be pessimistic about the state of affairs, its your choice and I can't do much about it.



As for my dislike of Tagore, there are millions of people in India who dislike one prominent figure or the other. The constitution guarantees me freedom of speech and thought. All I've said is that Tagore did not love the country. And I don't see this as a derogatory statement. I haven't called him a pig or a donkey like you've called a lot of current politicians in your posts. I'm not acting like an advocate for these politicians as I despise them equally, but my point is....how can you be selective about against who you can say derogatory things and against who you cannot.



I left that question of yours unanswered on the other thread as I saw that your attitude was a great letdown. I think we've covered that in private.

[akhilis2cool]

Dual Citizenship is a tricky issue.



On the one hand where it will give some good benifits to the NRIs, it will also give a lot of openings to the anti social elments. Theres every chance that it cld. be mis-used.



I do believe theres a need to b selective while giving the dual-citizenship. All the relevant information abt. the person/s has to b gathered before grnating him/her dc.

[Pragathi]

S.O.W.R.Y = Son's Own Wealth Released to You

D.O.W.R.Y = Daughter's Own Wealth Released to You



Suicide rates in India: (Indiastat.com)

National Suicide rate is: 11 people per 100,000

For males in the age group of 30 to 44, the Suicide rate is a whopping 508 per 100,000 persons; for women it is 220. The Suicide rates among men in the age group of 45 to 59 is a shocking 1,812 per 100,000 persons and among women, nearly 550. So much more people are dying due to SOWRY harassment than the DOWRY harassment.

However, among divorced males the suicide rate is 164 per 100,000 persons, but even in this class, among females the rate is only 63 per 100,000. While the suicide rate for separated men is about 167, for females it is only 41 per 100,000 persons.





There is a new evil in Indian Society. This is the SOWRY harassment of husbands and their families. This is a new feature of Indian society. The genesis of this harassment can be traced to the birth and spread of NRIs (Newly Rich Indians) around the Globe, with their money. The method of SOWRY Harassment is linked to the Matrimonial courts, which are geared more towards "teaching husbands a lesson ".



The NRIs, with their money and their peculiar position of having to leave to work, in the USA, Europe or wherever, were the first to feel the heat. These NRIs were educated and the thought of violence was anathema to them, and one encounter with a Police station was enough. Poor guys, they were threatened with loss of livelihood, prestige and so were forced to make a life time settlement, say Rs 25 Lakhs, Rs 30 Lakhs etc.



USA state Dept. already warning at : http://travel.state.gov/travel/india.html

at "DOWRY/VISA DEMANDS" section not to travel for marriage to India clearly to avoid 498A.

("DOWRY/VISA DEMANDS: A number of U.S. citizen men who have come to India to marry Indian nationals have been arrested and charged with crimes related to dowry extraction. Many of the charges stem from the U.S. citizen's inability to provide an immigrant visa for his prospective spouse to travel immediately to the United States. The courts sometimes order the U.S. citizen to pay large sums of money to his spouse in exchange for the dismissal of charges. The courts normally confiscate the American's passport, and he must remain in India until the case has been settled. There are also cases of U.S. citizen women whose families force them against their will into marriages to Indian nationals.")



Women's organizations readily admit that there is some abuse. Of course, when women's organization admits there is some abuse, then there is lots of abuse.



This 25 lakhs and 30 lakshs of settlement was enough for others to follow suit. This spurted in around 1996 and by 2001 every woman was on their bargain for getting easy money out of a poor sod who did not know what hit him. After all, filing a 498A is as easy as ordering an Idly Sambhar. Actually, it is easier, the proprietor could refuse to give you an idly sambhar, but the police cannot refuse.



The pattern of behavior is very simple. The girl would force him, belittle him continuously, harass him, and keep saying you are "Harassing Me". "Harassing Me". Keep provoking the guy and his family, till at some point in time the guy and his family decides to speak up and hey presto your wife becomes a 498A girl. Every family personally knows of men who have been harassed for Sowry. But very few people know of women being harassed for Dowry. Strange! How come the media sees things differently from what is around me?



This is because of 'consciousness-raising' – i.e. propaganda. No matter how gentle the guy is. It is important to force a 498A and ask for settlement. Marriage should not be a regime whereby, for no work on your part, you maintain your "lifestyle". But through 498A that is what it has become.



Police commissioners and the judiciary have clearly recognized that there is large-scale abuse of the 498A law, and that it is being used for SOWRY harassment. Hats off to them, they are the first ones to recognize the abuse, seeing that they do not have the power that an idly Sambhar vendor has to refuse to take part in SOWRY harassment



"Oh, but men are not driven to death! " Really, the most ignored fact is that men’s sucicide rate goes up by 50% after marriage, while it remains the same for women. Who is harassed more, then? Where are our tears when women drive men to suicide and they are classified as death due to financial problems? What are these financial problems, if not SOWRY harassment? One dowry death every 102 minutes and one Sowry death every 30 minutes, but no protection for SOWRY victims.



"Girls are independent and will not just put up with things, and hence now they are using 498A". Where was their independence and tolerance if they tolerated levels of harassment to 498A levels, before filing for divorce? Why do I see a 498A being filed before divorce? That is because a 498A is a weapon of divorce and an instrument of SOWRY harassment.



SOWRY harassment is defined as any demand for money, property or lifestyle which interferes with one's peaceful existence or lifestyle.



Unfortunately this 'independence' has brought in more SOWRY harassment and more demands for money from the guys. Why couldn’t the divorce and separation be: "I don’t like living with you. I go my way, you go your way, you live the lifestyle to which you are entitled, and I live the lifestyle to which I am entitled. I am thankful for the lifestyle you gave me while you were with me "



It is always Money Money Money. I want all your money and more. I will not give you anything back in return. Neither will I allow a child to visit you. Neither will I provide a weekly amount of sex, or whatever I used to give. Because in marriage only a man is supposed to give. A woman is not supposed to give anything.







disclaimer: Above article purely reflects and constitutes the writer's opinion/knowledge.

[Reality.]

That was a good informative post but one thing so obvious about it is that its way off topic.

[Habitual Perfectionist]

That was a good informative post but one thing so obvious about it is that its way off topic.

Wow....please share whatever information that you got from the post with us too

[Pragati ki ......Decipher]

Yahan bhi. Teri koi Pragati nahi ho sakti, tu sirf misuse ho sakta hain.....

[Kavita]

Good Points DQ and HP.



Well that was a very good discussion but I could not get a clear picture nor could I conclude much.



Here are few questions, I feel, are still unanswered.



1. What are the benifits of granting dual citizenship (refered to as DC henceforth) ?

2. What are the disadvantages?

3. I forgot the rest of the questions.

4. Yeah rememberd the next one. Why should DC be given? Should it be for the betterment of the nation/individual or both?

5. In continuation to the above, can anyone list the betterment-factors to be considered. Till now 2 points were made.

- inflow of foreign exchange

- extradition of criminals





Few questions to HP:



1. A person is willing to help the nation by heart (this being a goal of the person) and another just leads a good/ productive life (though not a goal but implicity does good enough 'good' to the nation.) Should these ppl be differentiated ?



ASAIK most of them fall into the second category. And this is the way we are. 'Humans'. A persons non-harmful behaviour or attitude cannot be the deciding foctor. I have noticed that, the amount of monetory benifits he does or how much sophisticated technology he can bring in, etc are the points being considered for development.



2. Can a person's intention to help the mother land be judged? Do u think the official sitting over ther judge them that way? Or will the person giving the information will the proper information?

3. What should be judged in the selection process, what good the person can do to the country or whether the person personally is good or not? (redundant question, huh)





Few Question to DQ:



1. How does struggling harder in a foreign land make any person eligible for good roads or better treatment by an official in mother land?

2. Which do you think is a better for a nation, stuggle hard (risking life) in a foreign land which helps the foreign nation develop or struggling in home land to make a career and living which if it does any good will be to the mother land?

3. Since when did escaping from reality in home land and struggling in a foreign land give a person the right to talk ill about their home land.

Isnt it analogus to the joke where the drunkard looses his gold ring in the dark and searches for it under the street light?

4. Isnt it thier in ability to cope with situations in mother land?

5. Since when did taking up neater work (working in a society where labour is dignified, good road, less pollution, good infrastructure, etc), leaving the dirty work back (fight the curroupt official, bad roads, traffic, pollution, population, maintain the bank balance of the person in phareign, take care of his family, his immovable assets, etc) to the loved ones in a country become a working-for-the-betterment-of-the-loved-ones in the mother land?

I personally feel, person who cannot contribute for a cause cannot have the right to question. (that is what I do, i dont contribute so I dont question) They are contributing money to their loved ones, so they can question only thier loved ones, not the beuarocrats or politions or curruption out here. (oh my, aggressive thinking.)



Both of you have stated mind sets of parties living here and not living here. Could you post something on whether DC should be granted or not? (the question is not of a person, but about the idea itself) If we can coulclude this we can go ahead with the discussion of whom it can be granted to. Or may be you did the same but I could not make out the points. I really cannot talk much on this as I will be one sided. I lived all my life in India and know very few ppl who live abroad.



Ppl in foreign lands are pouring in money but ppl india are struggling to pour out the dirt. I feel both deeds are equally important for the betterment of the nation. I could only think of the theoritical part.

[Habitual Perfectionist]

Thanks Kavita...Was getting kinda bored going over the same thing repeatedly. I'll be more than happy to address your issues from my perspective here.

1. What are the benifits of granting dual citizenship (refered to as DC henceforth) ?

The benefits are that the NRI's getting DC will have all rights of a citizen except for voting (AFAIK....correct me if I'm wrong there).

2. What are the disadvantages?

A lot of people with ulterior motives can end up misusing the status. Money laundering, easy access to the country etc. are the ways this could be misused.

4. Yeah rememberd the next one. Why should DC be given? Should it be for the betterment of the nation/individual or both?

IMO, it should be for the betterment of the nation only. As I've mentioned above, people who have moved out of the country and taken citizenship elsewhere have made a decision and have chosen their current country of domicile as their motherland. I don't see why we should be bothered with their well-being. They are foreigners as far as I'm concerned.

5. In continuation to the above, can anyone list the betterment-factors to be considered. Till now 2 points were made.
- inflow of foreign exchange
- extradition of criminals

Help in key areas like infrastructure, technology, medicine, planning etc.

Few questions to HP:

1. A person is willing to help the nation by heart (this being a goal of the person) and another just leads a good/ productive life (though not a goal but implicity does good enough 'good' to the nation.) Should these ppl be differentiated ?

No...I don't see why we should discriminate against people who are neutral. My only point was that nobody with ulterior motives should be barred from getting DC.

ASAIK most of them fall into the second category. And this is the way we are. 'Humans'. A persons non-harmful behaviour or attitude cannot be the deciding foctor. I have noticed that, the amount of monetory benifits he does or how much sophisticated technology he can bring in, etc are the points being considered for development.

Quite true.

2. Can a person's intention to help the mother land be judged? Do u think the official sitting over ther judge them that way? Or will the person giving the information will the proper information?

I know we cannot filter out 100% of the undesirable elements. But atleast it'll be better than no filtering at all.

3. What should be judged in the selection process, what good the person can do to the country or whether the person personally is good or not? (redundant question, huh)

I'd rather say the judging factor should be...whether the person would be detrimental to the country's progress or not...keeping in mind the neutrals.

Both of you have stated mind sets of parties living here and not living here. Could you post something on whether DC should be granted or not? (the question is not of a person, but about the idea itself) If we can coulclude this we can go ahead with the discussion of whom it can be granted to. Or may be you did the same but I could not make out the points. I really cannot talk much on this as I will be one sided. I lived all my life in India and know very few ppl who live abroad.

I think me and DQ are both in agreement of DC being granted. The point of argument is being selective. And maybe a question of what constitutes an insult to the nation. I agree with you somewhat when you say that they don't have a right to question. If they were so concerned, why did they flee to other lands in the first place?

Ppl in foreign lands are pouring in money but ppl india are struggling to pour out the dirt. I feel both deeds are equally important for the betterment of the nation. I could only think of the theoritical part.

Where is the money that's pouring in? More than half the money that pours in is in the illegal form of havala transactions. So it doesn't end up any place other than a jeweler's cashbox or something similar. I wouldn't call that betterment of the nation in any way.

[salamehyderabad]

Ppl in foreign lands are pouring in money but ppl india are struggling to pour out the dirt. I feel both deeds are equally important for the betterment of the nation. I could only think of the theoritical part.

Where is the money that's pouring in? More than half the money that pours in is in the illegal form of havala transactions. So it doesn't end up any place other than a jeweler's cashbox or something similar. I wouldn't call that betterment of the nation in any way.

Yea HP, u rite, the money thats being pumped goes into pplz own pocket n investments into real estates which make them lead rich lives. Its not invested in for a social cause( am talking about the majority) though the moniroty have contributed in the socio-econimoc development of the nation. Dont cuzz me HP am an NRI tooo...

[Habitual Perfectionist]

Ppl in foreign lands are pouring in money but ppl india are struggling to pour out the dirt. I feel both deeds are equally important for the betterment of the nation. I could only think of the theoritical part.

Where is the money that's pouring in? More than half the money that pours in is in the illegal form of havala transactions. So it doesn't end up any place other than a jeweler's cashbox or something similar. I wouldn't call that betterment of the nation in any way.

Yea HP, u rite, the money thats being pumped goes into pplz own pocket n investments into real estates which make them lead rich lives. Its not invested in for a social cause( am talking about the majority) though the moniroty have contributed in the socio-econimoc development of the nation. Dont cuzz me HP am an NRI tooo...

LOL SeH....don't worry. I won't cuss you bro.



I do realise that some money does go into meaningful causes. But not enough to say that the "diaspora" contributes heavily to the socio-economic growth of the country.