Anti Reservation Protests - a cynics viewpoint

[Vishrasayan]

I am furious too like so many others......but more so with the proposal to introduce reservations in Private Sector !! This is the only saving grace for the so called forward castes in India today - No doubt this should be fought tooth and nail - I'm all for the walks and talks on this.....



For some reason I think the current anti-reservation stir by the 'Elite Institutions' ( I will explain this expression below) is quite unnecessarily taking all attention away from this real problem of reservations in Private sector



I'm thinking out aloud....is this some kind of Save Our Brand Equity struggle by the AIIMS, IITs, IIMs etc? - No wonder, the student leaders haven't really bothered to give much weight to the PMs proposal of increasing the seats in top-end institutions like IITs, IIMs etc....why if you've been reading the papers, the managements and staff of these institutions are infact running a parallel signature campaign asking government not to thrust more seats unfairly on them !!



Hey who exactly are these guys helping? - aren't they working towards keeping the elite club small and exclusive - and think of whom they are blocking from getting in into their haloed portals? - its neither OBC not FC, its everybody.... I am forced to think this way.... may be beyond 275 seats IIM-Ahmedabad wouldn't be considered as elite and hence may not command the same kind of pay packets as the do now!



Agreed, staffing is a definite problem but not definitely insurmountable and should not be THE excuse for denying the education to deserving ppl - Aren't most private managmen institutions like ISB, etc manage perfectly well with overseas visiting faculty - It is a distinct possibility and would surely address the problem of finding good facutly to some extent



The stir if at all should be against reservations in private sector - as CAD said in some other forum, the reservations in education are here to stay - atleast, as of now there is no air of finality in the reservations for jobs in private sector...there is still some hope...



wake up people.... smell the reality.....standing and cheering the exclusivity struggle of the elite institutions is not gonna save your job in the nearby Call Centre/ BPO..... this is a different struggle altogether and mind you.....will have to be populated by you, me and the vast majority who don't have any brand equity neither of caste (OBC/SC/ST etc) nor of the Institution !

[Reality.]

I am furious too like so many others......but more so with the proposal to introduce reservations in Private Sector !! This is the only saving grace for the so called forward castes in India today - No doubt this should be fought tooth and nail - I'm all for the walks and talks on this.....

For some reason I think the current anti-reservation stir by the 'Elite Institutions' ( I will explain this expression below) is quite unnecessarily taking all attention away from this real problem of reservations in Private sector

I'm thinking out aloud....is this some kind of Save Our Brand Equity struggle by the AIIMS, IITs, IIMs etc? - No wonder, the student leaders haven't really bothered to give much weight to the PMs proposal of increasing the seats in top-end institutions like IITs, IIMs etc....why if you've been reading the papers, the managements and staff of these institutions are infact running a parallel signature campaign asking government not to thrust more seats unfairly on them !!

Hey who exactly are these guys helping? - aren't they working towards keeping the elite club small and exclusive - and think of whom they are blocking from getting in into their haloed portals? - its neither OBC not FC, its everybody.... I am forced to think this way.... may be beyond 275 seats IIM-Ahmedabad wouldn't be considered as elite and hence may not command the same kind of pay packets as the do now!

Agreed, staffing is a definite problem but not definitely insurmountable and should not be THE excuse for denying the education to deserving ppl - Aren't most private managmen institutions like ISB, etc manage perfectly well with overseas visiting faculty - It is a distinct possibility and would surely address the problem of finding good facutly to some extent

The stir if at all should be against reservations in private sector - as CAD said in some other forum, the reservations in education are here to stay - atleast, as of now there is no air of finality in the reservations for jobs in private sector...there is still some hope...

wake up people.... smell the reality.....standing and cheering the exclusivity struggle of the elite institutions is not gonna save your job in the nearby Call Centre/ BPO..... this is a different struggle altogether and mind you.....will have to be populated by you, me and the vast majority who don't have any brand equity neither of caste (OBC/SC/ST etc) nor of the Institution !

Let me begin by answering the dichotomy in your arguement.

You are againest reservations in private sector but you do not mind reservations in "Elite institutions" as long as the number of seats in them are increased. Am I right in that assumption?



If you answered yes , then read on otherwise I think you couldnt put your point across well.



Ok if you had answered yes, I have a simple question for you. The job market in the country is also not fixed. It also can be increased. Create more jobs to counter the ones that have been set aside for reservations. Instead of having 10 people answering phones getting 10 K salaries a month we can have 20 people getting 5 k a month and there you go ,, you have 10 extra jobs. The arguement doesnt sound good, does it?

Coz your quality of life would come down if the renumeration comes down.



Now apply the same analogy to a teaching institution. I will take the example of a medical college coz i can identify with that. Let me tell you the difference between an elite institution and an ordinary one. Starting with the number of students per cadaver ( dead body ) everything gets affected if the teacher-student ratio is too high. Imagine 16 people working on one organ like a heart ,, and learning and imagine 8. Let me tell you , there is a hell of a difference. And the attention the teachers give to you in these institution helps nurture the students to greater heights. Being part of both worlds, studied in a premier institution , interned in an oridinary one and worked in a newly estabilished college, I know how glaring the differences are. And I wouldnt want the number of seats to be increased in these institutions coz that will just dilute the effect these institutions have on the students passing out thru their portals.



Again going back to your arguement,, what would the facualty of an IIM gain if the people passing out get bigger pay packages,, they shouldnt be bothered right? And truely they are not. These people who dedicate their lives to teach after giving up greener pastures should not be judged with out thinking. If you have any idea about the kind of people who teach in these institutions , you would think twice before questioning their integrity. They are not the people who couldnt succeed in their careers and chose to teach but rather those who chose to teach as a career, as a passion. And I would rather listen and trust their view than the view of some idiotic senile bastards , who get elected to the pimphouse of the country called the parliament.



So think about it once more , what do the faculty of these institutions got to gain by opposing the move to increase the seats ? I think their arguement has merit and needs to be respected.

[Anti-reservation HP]

I am furious too like so many others......but more so with the proposal to introduce reservations in Private Sector !! This is the only saving grace for the so called forward castes in India today - No doubt this should be fought tooth and nail - I'm all for the walks and talks on this.....

For some reason I think the current anti-reservation stir by the 'Elite Institutions' ( I will explain this expression below) is quite unnecessarily taking all attention away from this real problem of reservations in Private sector

I'm thinking out aloud....is this some kind of Save Our Brand Equity struggle by the AIIMS, IITs, IIMs etc? - No wonder, the student leaders haven't really bothered to give much weight to the PMs proposal of increasing the seats in top-end institutions like IITs, IIMs etc....why if you've been reading the papers, the managements and staff of these institutions are infact running a parallel signature campaign asking government not to thrust more seats unfairly on them !!

Hey who exactly are these guys helping? - aren't they working towards keeping the elite club small and exclusive - and think of whom they are blocking from getting in into their haloed portals? - its neither OBC not FC, its everybody.... I am forced to think this way.... may be beyond 275 seats IIM-Ahmedabad wouldn't be considered as elite and hence may not command the same kind of pay packets as the do now!

Agreed, staffing is a definite problem but not definitely insurmountable and should not be THE excuse for denying the education to deserving ppl - Aren't most private managmen institutions like ISB, etc manage perfectly well with overseas visiting faculty - It is a distinct possibility and would surely address the problem of finding good facutly to some extent

The stir if at all should be against reservations in private sector - as CAD said in some other forum, the reservations in education are here to stay - atleast, as of now there is no air of finality in the reservations for jobs in private sector...there is still some hope...

wake up people.... smell the reality.....standing and cheering the exclusivity struggle of the elite institutions is not gonna save your job in the nearby Call Centre/ BPO..... this is a different struggle altogether and mind you.....will have to be populated by you, me and the vast majority who don't have any brand equity neither of caste (OBC/SC/ST etc) nor of the Institution !

Reservations for jobs in private sector organisations do not seem a practical possibility in the near future (ie. the next 10-15 yrs). If the govt. wants to enforce it, they'll need to have a considerable control over how a private enterprise goes about running its business.



Currently, the govt. control over private organisations exists in the areas of taxation & confirmance to corporate law. There is no law or constitutional edict that controls the process of recruitment in private organisations. And in order to pass a law or constitutional amendment on this subject, the politicos will have to battle the corporate world, which doesn't seem to be an easy task.



Big players in the private space have already made their stand clear on the subject. They have iterated on various fora that they are not in support of such a move. Moreover, there is no caste based discrimination in a majority of the private space. I've worked in a number of companies and I've never had to disclose my caste anywhere in the recruitment process.



So, this whole noise about reservations in the private sector looks like nothing more than a carrot meant for gullible vote banks. And I don't see anything of consequence coming out of it.

[Vishrasayan]

Hi Reality….. let me clarify again…I was merely thinking aloud and said as much….. to some extent even in the title (cynic’s viewpoint) – so take it easy – I am open to changing my perceptions



My answer to your first query – NO, I never meant higher number of seats will make reservations a lesser evil, I meant….;



That for the size of Indian Talent pool, the sheer number of seats currently on offer in IITs, IIMs, likes of AIIMS etc is pathetically low & down right ridiculous (5000 IIT seats for a country of 1 billion??) Don’t you think it is queer that the application/ admission ratio of IIMs or IITs is multifold higher than the likes of Harvard and MIT? – there was a time I used to feel proud of the fact….but gradually started to see the sheer irony of it…….



And that the managements/ current students/ alumni of these institutions should be pragmatic about seat increase instead of coming up with anguished statistics of how they can’t support more students



Now replying to the points raised by you;



Ref: Para 1 & 2 – your analogy is that Just like no of jobs will bring down the average pay-out & hence average quality of life, similarly the number of seats in an institution will bring down the quality of pass-outs? – is my understanding correct? – If yes;



THIS is the narrow way of looking at things that I am upset about – think of increasing seats simultaneously while improving infrastructure………if your above position is appropriate, by analogy India Inc. should stop setting up more IT parks as the competition will bring down the price they command & consequently, the individual IT guy would get a marginally lesser pay than he’d now – doesn’t sound right does it? – Peaks, troughs & saturation points are the defaults in any development & should not be the reasons to stop development.



Though I am born into a higher caste, I still maintain that ……..this is the kind of exclusivity that has been primarily responsible for the lack of horizontal spread of education over the centuries in India – Not now, not any more..



Did you say Cadavers per student ? – I am no doctor but I wonder if you say that in India how on earth the CIS (Russia et al) countries are managing and still offering medical education to countless Indians apart from their own ?– surely New Delhi would have access to more dead bodies than Siberia ! ( I know some trouble about the recognition off Russian Medical Degree in India, but I’m not getting into those details) – Again I don’t claim to know the intensity of problems a medical college would face, but are these insurmountable and pray for how long…?



Similar excuses have been given for donkeyears – At least now faced with a possibility, albeit forced, the institutions should take up aggressive plans in terms of higher intake and obtaining better infrastructure – If ever there was the right time, this is it….. The Institutions should & can extract their pound of flesh in all this political drama – At least some thing positive would come out of this muddle… In this endeavor of theirs they would surely find all the support



Ref: Para 3 – well…. I agree…….the faculty has no vested interest in blocking enhanced intake…



I also agree… these guys are great, they chose to teach rather than mint money, which they could… but yes the three traits of our parliamentarians that they CAN avoid are



being SENILE & DOGMATIC & instead of being positive and progressive

being PROBLEM CENTRIC rather than being solution oriented

being BOTTLENECK FOR DEVELOPMENT instead of being the change agents/ enablers



If they manage to keep these traits at bay, my respect for them would go up multifold..



In summary, I am



- Against reservations of any kind

- However if it is inevitable, make quality education available to many – increase seats, increase institutions

- Learn to Say YES, we’ve already mastered the art of saying NO as a nation

[Mayavi Morpheus]

MIT is worlds best engineering college and there is only one MIT. US did not create more MIT's just because it has a population of 300 million. Instead US has more universities which are equally good and are best in their fields.

My point is, why not leave IIT's alone. Let them be the premier institutions of India, only for the elite - The creamy layer of the society, the most brilliant students that the society could produce. Create other institutions which try to compete with IIT's but do not create more IIT's. What are we trying to achieve here? IIT's are the best not just because they have best infra in the country but also because the cream of students study there and this sanctity should be preserved. Higher education is different from primary school education which should be provided to every one on equal oppurtunity.

[Vishrasayan]

Good Idea - Leave IITs alone and create more such Institutions - since when creating new infrastructure become easier than enhancing the current one?



No body denied the avg IQ that the Asoks of the world possess - not body belittled their contribution, no body asked them to lose their equity & become me-toos, I am only saying be more inclusive - increasing the seats by 30% wouldn't kill you or the institution.



Elite

Creamy layer

Leave them alone

Preserve their sanctity



Impressive words really - but hardly inclusive.



Anyway my intention in starting the topic was to say, the current anti-reservation protests are more SOB affairs (Save Our Brandequity) - people who really want to protest should save some breaths & focus more on the probable reservations in private sector jobs.



On second thoughts… leave ‘em alone – there are many other good institutions that any way have OBC reservations already in place & may even get their share of infrastructure down the line – what the heck……..

[Vishrasayan]

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/arti ... 910434.cms

IIM-A can take 150 more students: Prof
[ 21 Aug, 2006 0108hrs ISTTIMES NEWS NETWORK ]

AHMEDABAD: Is the Indian Institute of Management, Ahmedabad (IIM-A) making a mountain out of a molehill over the OBC reservation issue? One of the institute’s professors has dug holes into the loud noises made by top bosses that expansion is not possible without more land and faculty. Senior faculty member Ramesh Gupta has said in a published working paper that IIM-A can accommodate 150 additional students and continue being the academic leader even with existing faculty and infrastructure.

This goes contrary to what IIM-A has been shouting hoarse about that it will have to stagger the quota increase over four years and need an additional 40 acres land. Complete expansion will raise the intake by 151 students.

Gupta’s paper, ‘IIMs Expansion Myths, Realities and Policy Choices’, was published last month in the Economic and Political Weekly . It says IIM-A can increase its Post-Graduate Programme (PGP) intake substantially if it uses its infrastructure optimally, introduces better faculty time management and defines its priorities more sharply.

Gupta notes that IIM-A can accommodate an additional 150 students even with existing infrastructure by tweaking the Fellow Programme in Management. Currently, he notes, 22 visiting faculty teach 10 to 15 FPM students in the second year, when only six to eight students graduate every year. Restructuring FPM staff would release 15 faculty for expansion of the flagship PGP.

The paper adds that even the present hostels are enough. Of 26 student dormitories, two dormitories have been set aside for cultural events and can house 60 students. Also, there is no justification for offering ‘married accommodation’ for one-year executives’ programme. If let out to PGP students, 100 more students can be accommodated.

Interestingly, while the IIM-A is talking about a third campus to accommodate the increased inflow of students once the quotas are introduced, the paper says B-schools in the US control much less land than the IIMs. And yet nearly 800 students pass out from each of the American B-schools, against 300 from IIM-A.

[Annhilated]

It is total misery for persons withoout reservations. They are not even allowed to fight and were harrassed everywhere. It is total loss. Either you have be born with golden spoon or fight for your survival against all odds. If even private sector is reserved then there is no way for hapless people to live. Hence if this trend is not fought it leads to total annhilation of some castes. They have no where to go except live a life and fight for survival. Neither is govt interested nor the society (dominated by castes with muscle power and political power) it is left for people to fight for themselves only means left is protest against the very attitude of reserving (indefinitely) jobs/education/political power/money ... lietrally everything. May people realise the futility of this at the earliest(it may not happen as long as this earth exists). Doomsday for all others is not distant future.

[VJ]

I personally feel the reservation system itself should be removed completely. The candidate has to be given the seats based on their merits and not on their caste, religion etc whatever u guys r referring to. It upto to the govt. to provide resources to the people who really lack those. We r in the modern era and the system is too old which was written far too long way back. I seriously consider it to be re-engineered considering the new requirements of the society and the country.



It's all waste of time throwing words on each other or discussing it. Someone from the government has to take the initiative in designing a new system. I'm not sure what the politicians, Prime Minister, and the President himself are doing being the highly qualified PM & President India has ever produced if I'm right.



Don't come after me which could lead to war of words my dear friends. Just kidding......



@VJ

[Indy]

I don't understand the policy of reservation based on caste at all. Seriously, in school or elsewhere the question of 'what is your caste' on meeting with new students has never crossed my mind. Neither, does it cross millions of people's minds as they rub shoulders on the bus, in the trains or while standing in line. If casteism does exist in certain pockets of India, then it is more important to have stricter laws and more severe punishment against any such discrimination rather than holding the entire population hostage and punishing them for something they haven't done or care about, really. Exactly how many rich 'untouchables' do we have in our country? Yeah, not a whole lot huh? The [u]real handicap anyone has is economic backwardness, which cuts across, caste, religion and other lines [/u]and that is what needs to be addressed. If the Govt. gave a damn about improving the lot of the people, the quality of 'existing' Govt. schools would not be this pathetic and you would've heard about reservation in private schools. But, as I heard, that proposal got thrown out the door. and if reservation is so important to give power to the 'oppressed sections' I wonder why we don't have it in Parliament- isn't that where the real power lies?? Did you know that the Govt. decided not to table the "Right to Education' bill this session- because it was not as important?? Some irony there!



As regards quality of work, the sectors which are fully under Govt. control- how many of them have shown, vision, dynamic development and great commitment to service? That should at least raise some questions in people's minds, since they are the sectors that fully enjoy any reservation policy per se.