Why do Hyderabadi's employ children in their homes?

[Concerned]

Don't we know it is illegal, and more importantly inhuman? How can we deprive a child of their basic rights to education. We seem to justify what we do saying that we are helping the family - bullshit! How much are we paying these children that we think it will help their families. In the long run, wouldn't the families be better off having an educated earning member. If you want to help the family, pay for the child's education!

[JustaLittleUnwell]

Amen!

[Monster]

We see a lot of children on the streets begging, stealing, gambling and doing all other shady activities. The defense that usually people employing child labour use is that what they're doing is better than what the child would be doing on the streets.



Agreed, but at what cost? If the child is not educated, he would get back into the streets again any-which-way.

[Cool-Not-Cold]

We see a lot of children on the streets begging, stealing, gambling and doing all other shady activities. The defense that usually people employing child labour use is that what they're doing is better than what the child would be doing on the streets.

Agreed, but at what cost? If the child is not educated, he would get back into the streets again any-which-way.

I totally agree. But practical solutions could be.....?

[JustaLittleUnwell]

Some practical solutions that come to my mind:



- Penal action against employers of child labor



- Diversion of government funds from Higher education to Basic education (IIT / IIM students can meet their expenses thru loans or privately instituted scholarships. Subsidizing the education of those who will earn 6-figure salaries in just a few years time, is absurd)



- Involvement of citizenry through volunteerism, charity etc. in government and non-government bodies, with the sole objective of extending literacy to the lowest strata of the society



- Effective implementation of mid-day meal scheme in schools so that the kids are in a nutritious state to pursue the education. This would also motivate them to attend school



- A ban on fanciful government expenditure like F1 racing, Afro-Asian Games, Party Mahanadus, excessive electioneering / campaigning costs etc. so that the cause of primary education is addressed adequately with the funds that become available by stopping this drain on the exchequer



Unfortunately, there are more pressing issues before the governments like becoming an economic and military superpower / IT juggernaut, becoming a 'developed' country by 2020, becoming a permanent member in the UN security council etc. that the powers that be don't think much about the child that toils.

[Monster]

Though i agree with Just... on a few points, i'm totally against a legal punishment for the employer. That's because the employer's at least giving the child a chance to survive. Without employment, he would be either starving or stealing or begging, none of which is better than working.



I've totally given up on the govt. so will not suggest any solutions from their side. what can be done though, is to contribute to funds for institutes like the one run by Shanta Sinha (got Magasaysay award).



And like the each one plant one drill for greenary, each one teach one. If each of us takes care of a child in whatever little way that we can, it would be a huge difference.

[JustaLittleUnwell]

......i'm totally against a legal punishment for the employer. That's because the employer's at least giving the child a chance to survive. Without employment, he would be either starving or stealing or begging, none of which is better than working.

I beg to differ. Without employment, the children would be attending school. They dont do that now coz they've got 'work' to do.



The employers are the main culprits in this whole scheme of things. They've got a workforce that is hardly assertive/aggressive, will accept whatever wages are paid, whatever working conditions are offered, and do whatever has been told (exploitation being the defining word). In some industries like carpet weaving, children are preferred over adults because apparently their little fingers can do the job better. May be good for the carpet, but not for the child who's weaving it. And the reason there's no definitive action from the government (whichever party is in power) is because the businessmen who employ child labor don't want to lose this valuable workforce and hence keep the cash flowing for the political parties, who in return turn a blind eye to this injustice.



So, it is not the businessman who's doing the children a favor. It is we the people (and our governments) who are doing the businessmen a favor, with our silence and by looking the other way.

[Mayavi Morpheus]

Justa, u got nothing to say about the parents who send their kids to work?

[JustaLittleUnwell]

Justa, u got nothing to say about the parents who send their kids to work?

Mayavi, welcome back after a long time :)



Reg. the parents who send their kids to work, I definitely don't commend their role, but I guess you can't expect better from most illiterate parents. If someone who is not educated appreciates the need for education, its value and consequently sends kids to school, that's something wonderful and visionary. Whereas if he/she doesn't appreciate it, it is only natural. You can't punish someone for not being a wonderful person.

[Mayavi Morpheus]

Thankq Justa.



Reg topic at hand-

Ok, Lets give the illiterate parents the benefit of doubt. They donot understand the value of education. That explains why they dont educate their kids. But how do you explain the forced/bonded labour?

And why not give the same benefit of doubt to the employer? Not all rich are educated who understand the value of education! Infact most of the bonded labour (other than sweat shops) are employed in rural areas by villagers and most of them are uneducated.



I am raising this issue to point out the problems with your practical solutions. And can you explain this statement

A ban on fanciful government expenditure like F1 racing, Afro-Asian Games, Party Mahanadus, excessive electioneering / campaigning costs etc. so that the cause of primary education is addressed adequately with the funds that become available by stopping this drain on the exchequer

Unfortunately, there are more pressing issues before the governments like becoming an economic and military superpower / IT juggernaut, becoming a 'developed' country by 2020, becoming a permanent member in the UN security council etc. that the powers that be don't think much about the child that toils.

[JustaLittleUnwell]

I dunno how bonded labor is connected to this discussion, neither do I know the demographics of employers who bond their laborers, and the nature of such bonds, as well as the extent to which it still exists.



This specific discussion is about the widely prevalent phenomenon of child laborers and the profile of their employers is well known - manufacturers of carpets, matches, beedis, jewellery, and so on - owned and managed by well placed individuals who are knowledgeable enough to know that it is an illegal business practise across the world and still continue it, because they've got the politician in their pockets.



And reg. the explanation you are seeking - I'm not sure if there's a need to elaborate further coz the statement is self-explanatory. Funds are getting drained and go to meet all non-productive expenditures like what I listed. Even a couple of days before, the PM was in town, and hundreds of thousands of people were 'mobilized' for the occassion. Apparently, each person gets Rs.50 - 100 and food for the whole day, not to mention the cost of transporting so many people in lorries etc. If you work out the math, it runs into crores of rupees that went to serve nothing, except create traffic bottlenecks across the city for the general public. Imagine how many crores can be saved by curbing these extravagances and how many schools can be funded.

[Arch]

We had a stay at home gardner (along with his family) who used to send his son to Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan in Jubilee Hills. The boy used to get 98 + if not hundreds, 'always' in all the subjects . His mom used to work at our home as a maid and the boy used to come home, do his home work and at times would help his mother or father at their work as a break for himself.

Now these 'parents were totally ill-literate', yet, he was here, getting such high grades, better than most of us, almost always. Why? What was the motivation that this boy/his family got ?



The boy was selected to Rammaya's Institute in Nallakunta and is working twds his dreams WOW.

[Mayavi Morpheus]

I dunno how bonded labor is connected to this discussion, neither do I know the demographics of employers who bond their laborers, and the nature of such bonds, as well as the extent to which it still exists.

This specific discussion is about the widely prevalent phenomenon of child laborers and the profile of their employers is well known - manufacturers of carpets, matches, beedis, jewellery, and so on - owned and managed by well placed individuals who are knowledgeable enough to know that it is an illegal business practise across the world and still continue it, because they've got the politician in their pockets.

Child labour and Bonded labour arent different. These days most bonded labour is child labour. The textile mills, jewellery shops etc pay money to the parents annually and buy their children. This is atrocious and inhuman. They need to be punished. No question about it. Its illegal and government has framed rules for that. If this is still going on, I dont blame the government, but few corrupt officers in the government. There are several NGO's working to eliminate child labour. They are doing this by educating the families who donot understand the value of education and how precious childhood is, and also the mill owners who think that they are helping a good cause by employing poor children. In other cases law helps. But I am not talking about them.
What I am talkin about is the household labour. If you go to any village, you can see the children of poor farmers/farm labours (economic and socially backward) workin in the fields/houses of rich farmers. They are paid an annual salary of around 4000 - 5000 rupees and made to work full time. While some of the parents are forced to send their kids to work, most do so for money. Some city dwellers who are land lords back in their villages bring these kids along and make them work in their houses as servants. In these cases the employer is to be blamed as much as the parents. Whats worrying is that no law can stop this type of child labour, where there is a single child working in a house hold. NGOs are of no help here. If anyone can stop this, its the parents. This is prevalent mostly in Telangana region.

Go to any MLA's house, you will find one. And as a FYI, our respected CM Chandra babu naidu employs a child labour! Can you believe that? She was just 10 years old, when I saw her 4 years back.

And reg. the explanation you are seeking - I'm not sure if there's a need to elaborate further coz the statement is self-explanatory. Funds.....

How is this related to India being a economic, military superpower and government spending on IT and Infra developmnent?



Reg. election campaigning and party mahanadus, its not the government money thats spent, its party fund.

[JustaLittleUnwell]

Mayavi, I was in fact referring to child labor in industries, not domestic child labor as you have explained in detail. I chose the former because of the sheer numbers, where you have entire villages / localities sending children to work instead of school to support a local industry. You dont find it as prevalent in domestic environments, as most of us hire a kaamwaali for domestic help, who is an adult in most cases.



The mention about IT / Infrastructure etc. was to point out government's failure in addressing basic needs and instead dressing up the mess with all these decorations. Let's face it - all these things may impress people like you and me, the educated / well-off elite..... the real India isn't impressed because it's lot hasn't seen any change. You may like to kid yourself about 'party funds' not being government funds, but it's the people's money that's coming back as party funds. Money that is earned through corruption, illegitimate favors to businesses which are able to afford it because they anyway offer less that what is due to the people...... parties are not intended to be revenue generators, right?



Arch, I dunno if your post/example was in response to one of mine, but I never said it's not possible for an illiterate parent to educate his/her children. I only said it's wonderful if such persons would exist. But then if world were to be full of wonderful persons.......

[Mayavi Morpheus]

The mention about IT / Infrastructure etc. was to point out government's failure in addressing basic needs and instead dressing up the mess with all these decorations. Let's face it - all these things may impress people like you and me, the educated / well-off elite..... the real India isn't impressed because it's lot hasn't seen any change.

I am surprised. Do you really think that IT and Infrastructure development doesnt help the poor? Do you really feel that PMGSY, GQ, NSEW projects are catering only to the rich with fancy automobiles?
What will happen to all the unemployed youth with out IT and Infra projects?
This is the only good thing the government is doing for its people. Its helping create employemnt for the millions of educated/uneducated, who without jobs are no different from the poor. The economy gets a boost and demand for unskilled labor is created. The kind of jobs which the poor can do.
Blame Government for not privatising the Loss making PSU's, blame it for the subsidies, blame it for the cheap current it provides.Blame the government for not doin enough for the poor, but donot blame it for the right things they are doing.
And when you say that the real India is not impressed by all this, you have to define what the real India is? Is it only the road side beggar or farm labour? The ordinary educated unemployed youth - who constitute 60% of Indias population, age group 21 - 35) means nothing to the country?
You are right in a sense, majority of India, outside cities didnt see lot of change. But change takes time. To undo the damage socialism has done to india in the first 4 decades of independance and the unproductive labour, corruption it brewed takes decades to change. We opened the economy just a decade back, and after the initial reforms, nothing changed. Its only now that the reforms are being implemented. It takes time to see the change.

Wealth generation in the only way to eradicate poverty and hence child labour. If you think this is not the right way to go, then please explain what in your view is the right thing to do to eradicate poverty. What steps the government has to take.

parties are not intended to be revenue generators, right?

I fell off the chair laughing. You were joking right.

[JustaLittleUnwell]

Sorry to cause hurt (the falling off the chair bit), but I fail to understand the joke.



Are you saying that parties ARE intended to be revenue generators? As in, they ARE justified in collecting 'party funds' for favoring businesses, by going easy on them / accepting sub-standard output from them, thereby putting India and its people at a disadvantage? And splurging this money (which has actually been earned at the cost of people's interests) on mahanadus, electioneering and the like, causing further inconvenience to the very same people? Here I was, believing that parties are supposed to have ideologies, people's interests at the top of their agenda and so on.



How I wish all this was just a joke and not the painful reality.

[Mayavi Morpheus]

First of all, there is no relation between parties and industrial output. In a capitalist environment its the market that decides the quality of goods and products produced by a industry. If there is no quality (in a competitive market) then the industry wont survive. Reason why the PSU's - BSNL, Airports, and several other PSU's survived before 1990's, not anymore. The industries (private) donate money to the parties so as to have a favourable government in power. Lobbying is what it is called. This doesnt have any effect on the end product reaching the consumer.

Though industries donating money to parties is ethically wrong, thats the way democracy works in any country, US or IU - Indian Union, and except in exceptional cases (Like the case of the new Georgian president) it does the ordianry citizen no harm.



In a true democracy parties are not supposed to make money. But in this materialistic world, will that concept work? Will any politician spend his valuable time on decision making for social cause without any remuneration? The whole concept itself is absurd.

Are you saying that parties ARE intended to be revenue generators? As in, they ARE justified in collecting 'party funds' for favoring businesses,

Actually, parties are intended to generate revenue. Thats the Law I guess. In India, I think that the contesting person shouldnt spend his money on canvassing, or there is a some upper limit on expenditure. So, you see, its the Law!

Anyway, what made me laugh is the innocence with which you asked "parties are not intended to be revenue generators, right? "



Bottom line, what you said about misuse of paty funds is right. But strictly speaking its not government money and the quality of industrial output is no way related to party funds.

PS: I am not opposing your theory, I understand how its affecting junta. But the way you are connecting these two issues is not correct, IMO.

[JustaLittleUnwell]

MM, firstly i'm not an apologist for PSUs, govt organizations etc. so you can spare yourself the effort of trashing them, coz i'm with you too about the redundancy of these institutions.



Now, coming to the contentious issue - disproportionate accumulation of party funds and its linkage to the non-development of India. Why do businesses need a favorable government? Why do they 'donate' (bribe?) money to political parties? If quality of their output is the sole determining criteria of their success or failure?



Lemme try to answer these questions myself. The industry needs a favorable government so that it can win favorable public contracts often at much higher prices than market values. Or so that it can dump obsolete equipment (of near-scrap value) on public institutions. Or so that it can screw up the environment, air, water and other natural resources without any regulatory interference. In a nutshell, the industry bribes the parties by contributing to party funds so that it can profit at the expense of the Indian people, and their tax contributions (aka public funds).



So why is this linked to child labor, illiteracy, poverty and others issues from which we elite are comfortably insulated, but from which the common man has no relief? Because the goverments have constantly shifted attention from taking real development measures like improving education, healthcare, law & order, land reforms etc. to cosmetic measures like building IT parks, flyovers, 7-lane highways, international airports, 5 star hotels, metro-rails, hosting of sporting events and so on. These investments offer a lot of scope for corruption, exchange of bribes, party funds / pocket money etc. that it is beneficial for the powers that be to be doing only these things. Defence procurement is another area which is beyond any audit / accountability, as billions of dollars get spent on buying coffins, dubious guns (Bofors), thermal sensors(of Tehelka fame), outdated aircraft carriers and what not, without no one knowing what is really happening, how much money is going where etc.



While governments have been preoccupied with the task of raising party funds / pocket money thru all these infamous deals, the interests of the poor man has somehow taken a back seat. So, we see a country which is all set to become a 'developed country' lacking basic social justice, majority of people living in penury, taking to whatever means available (including sending their kids to work) to keep themselves alive and so on.



Development is required - let the private initiatives spearhead it. Government has to focus solely on improving basic education, healthcare, law and order/security and other such pro-poor measures. IT parks, power stations, airports, telecom etc. can always come up with private investments, and there's no need for the government to be getting into these and fattening their party funds.



Since you tend to fall off from your chair when you come across innocent statements, I thought of adding this copy-paste:

One of my favorite stories is Hans Christian Anderson’s The Emperor’s New Clothes. And my favorite part is where the Emperor, completely naked (or just in his underwear, depending on which version you get), parades his new "clothes" for the first time in public. Now the people watching this procession do not want to appear ignorant, for it had long been hyped by the Emperor’s "tailors" that the garments were so esoteric, that only the truly noble and wise could see them. So as the bare-bottomed Emperor marches by, they roundly cheer him and tell him how wonderful his new clothes are. And all is well until a young boy exclaims, but mother, he isn’t wearing any clothes!

I sincerely believe that innocence that provokes asking of uncomfortable questions is any day better than cynical conformism that accepts status quo unquestioningly.

[JustaLittleUnwell]

Actually, parties are intended to generate revenue. Thats the Law I guess. In India, I think that the contesting person shouldnt spend his money on canvassing, or there is a some upper limit on expenditure. So, you see, its the Law!

I'm amazed :) The law you mention only stipulates a ceiling / spending limit on canvassing. It doesn't justify the practise of collecting party funds.



There's no law which requires parties to collect funds from businesses in return for favorable treatment. It is just that the legal system doesnt prohibit or take a critical look at such 'donations' / bribes. I think it is high time the law-makers / judiciary took notice of this despicable phenomenon in Indian politics.

[Mayavi Morpheus]

MM, firstly i'm not an apologist for PSUs, govt organizations etc. so you can spare yourself the effort of trashing them, coz i'm with you too about the redundancy of these institutions.

Good to know that.

Lemme try to answer these questions myself. The industry needs a favorable government so that it can win favorable public contracts often at much higher prices than market values. Or so that it can dump obsolete equipment (of near-scrap value) on public institutions. Or so that it can screw up the environment, air, water and other natural resources without any regulatory interference. In a nutshell, the industry bribes the parties by contributing to party funds so that it can profit at the expense of the Indian people, and their tax contributions (aka public funds).

Not always. The most important revenue source for parties are big industries (at the center). Companies like Reliance and TATA. The reason they want a favourable government is to eliminate competition not only in government projects, but in the general market. This *doesnt* effect the general public in anyway. As a consumer it doesnt matter to me if the road is being built by TATA and sons or L&T. The companies also need tax sops. *Tax sops* is the key word. Budget is also dictated by these big industries and you cant simply do away with it.
However I do agree that local corrupt politicians get money from scrupulous sources who wants to cheat people. And in many cases the party fund is not 'donated' volunatrily.This has to be dealt by law. Make parties accountable for their funds.

So why is this linked to child labor, illiteracy, poverty and others issues from which we elite are comfortably insulated, but from which the common man has no relief? Because the goverments have constantly shifted attention from taking real development measures like improving education, healthcare, law & order, land reforms etc. to cosmetic measures like building IT parks, flyovers, 7-lane highways, international airports, 5 star hotels, metro-rails, hosting of sporting events and so on. These investments offer a lot of scope for corruption, exchange of bribes, party funds / pocket money etc. that it is beneficial for the powers that be to be doing only these things. Defence procurement is another area which is beyond any audit / accountability, as billions of dollars get spent on buying coffins, dubious guns (Bofors), thermal sensors(of Tehelka fame), outdated aircraft carriers and what not, without no one knowing what is really happening, how much money is going where etc.

To you IT parks, & lane roads may seem cosmetic changes but to me they are necesary developments. Its high time the government did something like this. We are already running a decade late in infrastructure. So you are justified when you say that the government is not concentrating on health care and education, but you cannot say that infrastructure is not important. Because infrastructure (like roads, ports and other developmental projects, yes IT park included) plays a part in aleivating poverty. I dont think I have to explain you why all the brilliant minds of the late 60's to date were lost to the West, where they contributed a lot to science, technology and overall development.

I see it this way. The GOI has 100 Rs. It can spend this money on building a business house which generates revenue and employs two persons who pay tax or spend the money to educate two of four poor people. If it spends money on business house, the revenue generated will be 200 Rs which can be used to educate all the four people. If it spends on educating the two and not on business then these two + the two unemplyed already existing will increase unemployment as there is no business house to employ them.

Regarding Aircraft grade aluminum coffins, I will make no comments. But please, pelase donot comment on Bofors guns (which proved invaluable during Kargil), Thermal sensors (which are still helping save lives of hundreds of soldiers) and Aircraft carriers (Do you know the envisaged role of Indian Navy in the Indian ocean region, what power projection capabilities it has or requires, what role Vikranth played in 71 war, How ADG helps etc etc?) The IN and GOI is definitely not going to publish stratergic details and all the details you get are through DDM.

While governments have been preoccupied with the task of raising party funds / pocket money thru all these infamous deals, the interests of the poor man has somehow taken a back seat. So, we see a country which is all set to become a 'developed country' lacking basic social justice, majority of people living in penury, taking to whatever means available (including sending their kids to work) to keep themselves alive and so on.

Is there any developed country which has half the population 25% population living under poverty? Sleep well, no one will call India a developed country with a quarter of population going hungry.

Development is required - let the private initiatives spearhead it. Government has to focus solely on improving basic education, healthcare, law and order/security and other such pro-poor measures. IT parks, power stations, airports, telecom etc. can always come up with private investments, and there's no need for the government to be getting into these and fattening their party funds.

Right, that is what is needed. The government needs to let the private industries take developmental tasks. But its the pro-poor regualtions framed by the socialist governments which is blocking the private companies from doing so. Why do you think there is so much oppositiong for the privatization of industries from people within the government and Left parties, labour unions?

I sincerely believe that innocence that provokes asking of uncomfortable questions is any day better than cynical conformism that accepts status quo unquestioningly.

Asking uncomfortable questions knowing fully well the asnwers?

It doesn't justify the practise of collecting party funds. There's no law which requires parties to collect funds from businesses in return for favorable treatment

Yep. And no law bars businesses from contributing money. Favourable treatment is something which has to be dealt with.

BTW, can you tell me from what sources parties hould collect funds?