Concentration camps in the 21st Century. The world sits and

[azazel]

Allah help them

[DQ]

A LIBERATED NATION





















BRINGING FREEDOM TO THE OPPRESSED

[DQ]

[DQ]

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/08/24/abughr ... index.html

[CtrlAltDel]

damn....i want to see the day when US is forced to withdraw in disgrace from Iraq like it happend in 'Nam

[azazel]

damn....i want to see the day when US is forced to withdraw in disgrace from Iraq like it happend in 'Nam

i'd love to see tht too, but for now, i'd like to see them LEAVE the poor country without causing more deaths/destruction..

[Mayavi Morpheus]

and watch every two bit gun toting _ terrorrise, extort and kill ordinary citizens?

or watch the religious shi'ite leaders take over the government and impose sharia?



Why are these pictures not posted?

[Lucifer]

I will tell you why they are not posted. They are terrorists. Their objective is to spread terror. But is that the objective of a demmocratically elected government? Should a government perpetuate acts of inhumanity? Then how does the civilised world differ from the barbarians?

[azazel]

MM dude, wht'd u do if some punks invaded ur country for no reason and then force u into a corner? u'd go out n retaliate.. i knw, i would. in their current situation, thts how desperate these ppl are.. dun brand 'em as terrorists man

[Mayavi Morpheus]

Lucifer:

I will tell you why they are not posted. They are terrorists. Their objective is to spread terror.

Does that justify the mindless bombings and killing of Iraquis? Should they not be eliminated?
Arent these barbarians one of the reason why US is not pulling out its troops?

Azazel:

MM dude, wht'd u do if some punks invaded ur country for no reason and then force u into a corner? u'd go out n retaliate.. i knw, i would. in their current situation, thts how desperate these ppl are.. dun brand 'em as terrorists man

I will be with you in that fight, but I wont kill my fellow country men. And if you do, I will be the first one to brand you terrorrist.

Last time my country was occupied by a foreign nation, some of my fellow country men chose armed struggle. Never did they kill another Indian. The baghat singhs et al whose chose armed struggle didnt even kill a britisher. That my friend, makes them freedom fighters and not terrorists.

How many afghanis were killed by the mujahideen during russian occupation of Afghanistan?

What are these people in Iraq doing? Killing 100's of Iraquis in a car bombs just to injure one american marine? That collateral damage may be acceptable to you but not for me.

And are you sure these people are Iraquis and not terrorrists (or republican gaurd for that matter) from other countries trying to save arab pride from evil western nations?

Are you sure that they care for the life of an ordinary citizen?

If they are, why are they bombing food supply trucks? why are they killing other civilians and Iraqi police?

Why are they holed up in Islams holiest shrine and waging war?

Do you know how many people are being killed in the cross fire?



Two wrongs dont make a right. If US is wrong in using excessive force against resistance, then the terrorrists are also wrong in killing civilians and making their life miserable.



Pulling out american troops is not the solution because no other country is comitting its peace keeping force.

Iraq needs a peace keeping force and till that happens US Army needs to be there.

The solution, IMO, is to train the US forces to show restrain, but it cant be done overnight. A soldier is trained to kill to win war, he cant be used to police (It took five years for the Indian army deployed in kashmir to adjust to the proxy war). They just cant keep bombing buildings from air to kill 'suspected' terrorrists. This will only alienate people.

The rebel leaders need to give the Iraqi governing council an oppurtunity to improve things and restore peace. A war ravaged country that has been under dictator ship for 30 years cannot be rebuilt in an year. It takes time and cooperation from all parties and if religion card is not played, Iraq can be as developed as a Japan, Korea or germany with all its natural resources.

[DQ]

and watch every two bit gun toting _ terrorrise, extort and kill ordinary citizens?
or watch the religious shi'ite leaders take over the government and impose sharia?

Why are these pictures not posted?

[/quote]



The above images are a result of this.











Children being sexually abused, and still their parents being tainted terrorist for fighting back ?



Sharia law, Please study Islam and Islamic history, before suggesting Shia ulema imposing sharia law etc.



What do you expect where 90 % of population is following Sharia, what law do you want to impose there ?



Sharia !!! What do you know about it ?

Do not bring the Taliban version, and if thats the only one you know, you are a victim of your ignorance.



Well I do not want this post to turn into a relegious debate or hate thread. This is to bring forth that CONCENTRATION CAMPS EXIST IN THE 21st Century.







If you want to potray sharia or whatever please start another thread and we will discuss it there.

[Mayavi Morpheus]

Forget what I know about Sharia. Since you seem to know so much about it, enlighten me!

Where do 90% of people follow sharia? Iraq? Iraq was a secular country where women enjoyed equal rights unlike many other muslim countries. Sharia was never followed in Iraq.

If taliban version or the Nigerian version or the NWFP version of sharia is not pure, then do tell me where it is practiced in the purest form.

Please quote sources of child abuse and not just accusations. The pic I posted is self explanatory, but the pics you posted is not. So post the story behind it. Who are those people? Are they ordinary civilians or detained criminals/civilians?

[DQ]

Please quote sources of child abuse and not just accusations. The pic I posted is self explanatory, but the pics you posted is not. So post the story behind it. Who are those people? Are they ordinary civilians or detained criminals/civilians?

Did you read the CNN link I posted a couple of posts earlier, the photos are from there, read the explanations.



Criminals/Civilians who will decide this ?



What is crime, going against UN invading a country, all activities past this should be considered crime?



Child abuse. Did you read the very first post in this thread



There is a link out there, follow it.



Told you that I do not want to turn this post into a relegious argument, if you want to argue start a new post !!!



Do not ascertain that your point is factual and the others are not. You did the same in the Nizam thread too. Multiple links did not appease you, the only link you had was referring a book?



Before accusing look if thats exactly what you are doing. You consistently accuse that I do not read. You have not read this Post at all and have come up with multiple arguments. Please read before replying

[Mayavi Morpheus]

Ok, I read the first post but when you said child abuse, I thought you were referring to something else, something I read on another forum.



What happened in abu gharib is wrong and those who were involved in it should be punished. Read my first post on this thread, I posted the same.

From the CNN link:

Schlesinger noted, however, that there was "no policy of abuse."

Regarding sharia law, if you were not interested in debating it, you shouldnt have commented on that part in your previous post or called me ignorant. I am not interested in hearing your exalted versions of sharia. I dont know how good its in book, but I know how bad it is in practice.



As for your 'visionary' Nizam, your three or four links havent proved that I was wrong. The liniks you posted did not say that razakkars killed people, does that mean it didnt happen? They did not say anything about the number of children he had, does that mean he was incapable? I dont know why this seemingly simple point is beyond your comprehension.



Finally, do you have any practical solution for this mess?

[DQ]

Finally, do you have any practical solution for this mess?

Again this is not a discussion on the WAR but atrocities. When Concentration camps are a mark on history and the leader who carried it out is tainted in History as a brutal dictator, so should the leader of the occupying forces, who are carrying out these atrocities ?



Instead I read that they have been nominated for a Peace Prize ???



Solution looks like it is un folding, read the current news.

[DQ]

An article that spells ground reality. Specially to the entombed MMs!!



I've been here a week now, watching the city prepare for the Republican national convention and the accompanying protests. Much is predictable: tabloid hysteria about an anarchist siege; cops showing off their new crowd-control toys; fierce debates about whether the demonstrations will hurt the Republicans or inadvertently help them.

What surprises me is what isn't here: Najaf. It's nowhere to be found. Every day, US bombs and tanks move closer to the sacred Imam Ali shrine, reportedly damaging outer walls and sending shrapnel flying into the courtyard; every day children are killed in their homes as US soldiers inflict collective punishment on the holy city; every day, more bodies are disturbed as US marines stomp through the Valley of Peace cemetery, their boots slipping into graves as they use tombstones for cover.



Sure, the fighting in Najaf makes the news, but not in any way connected to the election. Instead it's relegated to the status of a faraway intractable ethnic conflict, like Afghanistan, Sudan or Palestine. Even within the antiwar movement, the events in Najaf are barely visible. The "handover" has worked: Iraq is becoming somebody else's problem. It's true that war is at the centre of the election campaign - just not the one in Iraq. The talk is all of what happened on Swift boats 35 years ago, not what is being dropped out of US AC-130 gunships this week.



But while Vietnam has taken up far too much space in this campaign already, I find myself thinking about the words of Vietnam veteran and novelist Tim O'Brien. In an interview for the 1980 documentary Vietnam: The 10,000 Day War, he said: "My time in Vietnam is a memory of ignorance and I mean utter ignorance. I didn't know the language. I couldn't communicate with the Vietnamese except in pidgin English. I knew nothing about the culture of Vietnam. I knew nothing about the religions. I knew nothing about the village community. I knew nothing about the aims of the people, whether they were for the war or against the war ... No knowledge of what the enemy was after ... and I compensated for that ignorance in a whole bunch of ways, some evil ways. Blowing things up, burning huts as a frustration of being ignorant and not knowing where the enemy was."



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He could have been talking about Iraq today. When a foreign army invades a country about which it knows virtually nothing, there is plenty of deliberate brutality, but there is also the unintended barbarism of blind ignorance. It starts with cultural and religious slights: soldiers storming into a home without giving women a chance to cover their heads; army boots traipsing through mosques that have never been touched by the soles of shoes; a misunderstood hand signal at a checkpoint with deadly consequences.



And now Najaf. It's not just that sacred burial sites are being desecrated with fresh blood; it's that Americans appear unaware of the depths of this offence, and the repercussions it will have for decades to come. The Imam Ali shrine is not a run-of-the-mill holy site; it's the Shia equivalent of the Sistine Chapel. Najaf is not just another Iraqi city, it is the city of the dead, where the cemeteries go on for ever, a place so sacred that every devout Shia dreams of being buried there. And Moqtada al-Sadr and his followers are not just another group of generic terrorists out to kill Americans: their opposition to the occupation represents the overwhelmingly mainstream sentiment in Iraq. Yes, if elected, Sadr would try to turn Iraq into a theocracy like Iran, but for now his demands are for direct elections and an end to foreign occupation.



Compare O'Brien's humility with the cockiness of Glen Butler, a major in the marines whose August 23 New York Times article reads as if it were ghostwritten by Karl Rove. Butler brags that though he has been in Iraq for a month, he "know[s] a bit about the caliph, about the five pillars and about Allah". He explains that by swooping low over Najaf's cemeteries, he is not inflaming anti-US hatred but "attacking the source of the threat". He dismisses his enemies as foreign fighters and ex-Ba'athists and "a few frustrated Iraqis who worry about Wal-Mart culture infringing on their neighbourhood".



It's hard to know where to begin. The Mahdi army that Butler is attacking is made up of Iraqi citizens, not foreigners. They are not Ba'athists: they were the most oppressed under Saddam's regime and cheered his overthrow. And they aren't worried that Wal-Mart is taking over their neighbourhood: they are enraged that they still lack electricity and sewage treatment, despite the billions pledged for reconstruction.



Before Sadr's supporters began their uprising, they made their demands for elections and an end to occupation through sermons, peaceful protests and newspaper articles. US forces responded by shutting down their newspapers, firing on their demonstrations and bombing their neighbourhoods. It was only then that Mr Sadr went to war against the occupation. And every round fired out of Butler's helicopter doesn't make Des Moines and Santa Monica safer, as he claims. It makes the Mahdi army stronger.



As I write, the plan for the convention demonstration seems to be to express general outrage about Iraq, to say "no to war" and "no to the Bush agenda". This is an important message, but it's not enough. We also need to hear specific demands to end the disastrous siege on Najaf, and unequivocal support for Iraqis who are desperate for democracy and an end to occupation.



The US antiwar coalition, United for Peace and Justice states that "there are two key moments this year when people throughout the United States will have the opportunity to send a resounding message of opposition to the Bush agenda: November 2, election day; and August 29, in New York City". Sadly, this isn't the case: there is no chance for Bush's war agenda to be clearly rejected on election day because John Kerry is promising to continue, and even strengthen, the military occupation of Iraq. That means there is only one chance for Americans to express their wholehearted rejection of the ongoing war on Iraq: in the streets outside the Republican national convention. It's time to bring Najaf to New York.



http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story ... 96,00.html

[DQ]

Spread of Barbarism





Humanity at its lowest ebb.



Poor families out there to earn a living, probably these people did not know what Visa they had acquired before flying of to earn a decent living.



What is the UN upto ?

100s and 1000s of innocent people are dying and the world sits and ......?



Moderate countries like India need to play a bigger role in International Politics.[/img]

[Mayavi Morpheus]

I would have posted my comments on the gaurdian article, but to the Dedh Quintal gobar in your head which you call brain, it would be incomprehensible. So I refrain.

[DQ]

I would have posted my comments on the gaurdian article, but to the Dedh Quintal gobar in your head which you call brain, it would be incomprehensible. So I refrain.

Good on you.!!!



A pessimist like yourself need not comment on global issues.



A churastha chaap, whose only option out of arguments is to get personal.



You have still not replied, kaun se gauv se hain aap ?



Gauv waale saale jub sujhe ga gobar - go hee.



he he he he he he he he

[Mayavi Morpheus]

A pessimist like yourself need not comment on global issues.

Then you shouldnt have posted something like this

Specially to the entombed MMs!!

[DQ]

Which was a reply to accusation about presenting facts, where you have been following the posts from Day 1. (And then you come back suggesting that I read first, nor do you accept that you do not read first.)



The Entombed was also to highlight, that from Post 1 I have been advising that this is not to discuss the legitamacy of war, but the atrocities in Iraq.

Your replies all through have been either to drag War or the communal factor, which is not what we want to discuss in this thread.



Your post of Insurgents fighting back and mullahs taking over, were not ground realities and would have dragged into a war or no war debate.



That proves that you are entombed in your thoughts.

[akhilis2cool]

Spread of Barbarism


Humanity at its lowest ebb.

Poor families out there to earn a living, probably these people did not know what Visa they had acquired before flying of to earn a decent living.

What is the UN upto ?
100s and 1000s of innocent people are dying and the world sits and ......?

Moderate countries like India need to play a bigger role in International Politics.[/img]

its the iraqis who`ve killed them...why blame the UN? the militants in iraq also kidnapped the indian drivers even though we were no way involved in the war....

[marko]

That proves that you are entombed in your thoughts.

DQ, we all admire your passion on this issue, and while i don't feel that this is a useful discussion, others do, judging by the comments. So keep posting!

however, lay off MM, he is entitled to express his opinion without being accused of being entombed in his thoughts. With regards to sticking to the topic, if you really wanted to talk about post-war atrocities then you shouldn't have put this in your first post

Was the war justified... lets not argue that. As it has been proven it was not.

for anyone to argue your other points they would have to pass this over, thus seeming to accept it. The above statement is one of opinion, presented as fact (IMO )

[DQ]

DQ, we all admire your passion on this issue, and while i don't feel that this is a useful discussion, others do, judging by the comments. So keep posting!

however, lay off MM, he is entitled to express his opinion without being accused of being entombed in his thoughts. With regards to sticking to the topic, if you really wanted to talk about post-war atrocities then you shouldn't have put this in your first post

Was the war justified... lets not argue that. As it has been proven it was not.

for anyone to argue your other points they would have to pass this over, thus seeming to accept it. The above statement is one of opinion, presented as fact (IMO )

Well goes on to tell, that you did not get the full picture here.



1. Entombed to MM was due to his/her various views on different posts, every discussion according to MM needs to turn into a communal issue, and the blame needs to be laid on a particular community.



2. After reading the first post my freind people had an option to ignore this thread. And thats exactly why I had posted it in my very first post.

Otherwise the discussions tend to spiral into war of words and what needs to be highlighted is forgotten. (Is it not the state of the world. Anyway lets keep this thread away from this state)



3. Now MM or whoever replied either accepted the fact that the war was wrong or read that and ignored it and wanted to thrust their POV, for which they are a free to start a thread and who ever wants to discuss can?

[DQ]

Humanity at its lowest ebb.



Poor families out there to earn a living, probably these people did not know what Visa they had acquired before flying of to earn a decent living.



What is the UN upto ?

100s and 1000s of innocent people are dying and the world sits and ......?



Moderate countries like India need to play a bigger role in International Politics.



One of the first steps in restoring World Order.



India deploys warships in Persian Gulf







India needs to play a greater role in International Monitoring. If terrorism has to end there is no better country which can provide an amicable solution.